Penality to saves according to spell level

[Aranthys]

Okay, at the moment, here is the penality to spells depending on spell level :

Level 1 : No penality

Level 2 : -1 to save

Level 3 : -2 to saves

Level 4 : -3 to saves

Level 5 : -4 to saves

Level 6 : -5 to saves

Level 7 : -6 to saves

Level 8 : -6 to saves

Level 9 : -6 to saves

 

I really think the progression here is a bit too harsh.

 

It should be something like this :

Level 1 : No penality

Level 2 : -1 to save

Level 3 : -2 to saves

Level 4 : -2 to saves

Level 5 : -3 to saves

Level 6 : -3 to saves

Level 7 : -4 to saves

Level 8 : -4 to saves

Level 9 : -5 to saves

 

A lot of people complain about casters beeing a bit overpowered with SCS. I think this is mostly due to the penalities against saves.

In vanilla, most spells have no penality against saves, but greater Malyson gives a -4 penality.

Let's look at a level 20 character that has a 3 save vs spells.

In vanilla, against most spells he has a 15% chance to be affected by spells.

With malyson, he has a 35% chance to be affected.

 

With SR, this character has :

- 45% chance to be affected by any spell level 7 or higher. 55% chance with malyson (-2 penality)

- 30-40% chance for spells level 4+ / 40-50% with malyson.

 

The modification you made to saves actually buffed casters WAY, WAY, WAY more than whatever we've been discussing about Protection From Magical Weapons & Mantles granting imminity to weapons.

 

While I agree it's important for higher level spells to become harder to save against, I really think that

1] The progression is too harsh. -5 saves against level 6 spells ? Hello disintegratex3 in a sequencer for imba damage...)

2] -6 is too much. Even the most powerfull spell should not provide a -30% chance to save against them.

Actually, only level 9 spells should provide a -25% save chance panality (-5)

[Ardanis]

My vote is for penalties to be like is

 

lvl1 = 0

lvl2 = 1

lvl3 = 2

lvl4 = 3

lvl5 = 4

lvl6 = 4

lvl7 = 5

lvl8 = 6

lvl9 = 6

[Aranthys]

-6 is a lot. With malyson, we're talking about a -8 to saves total.

A character with 2 to save (once every ten rolls to be affected) would be affected five times more often. ( once every 2 rolls).

 

That's way, way, way too much. A save of 2 actually requires some very powerful items to achieve (a level 20+ warrior has a save vs spells of 6 for example)

Remember that we're dealing with probabilities to be affected.

[Ardanis]

Dwarves and their kin have good saves thanks to their CON stat. There're potions of Invulnerability +5 to all (warriors only), Stone Form +3 to all (usable by all) and finally the ultimate Magic Shielding +20 (ok, these are too rare to be accounted). And some spells do grant boni to saves, notably Spirit Armor with it's +3 to all (or is it still in plans?).

[Salk]

Well, I generally agree here with Aranthys.

 

The penalty is indeed too steep.

 

The table he proposed seems well balanced.

[igi]

Walking back into your study after a hearty lunch, you find a fresh crisp scroll has been placed on your desk. You look around quickly, but there is no sign of any intruder, other than a slight chill in the air and a tingle over your skin. How can someone have placed the scroll on your desk, inside a looked where, when you hold the only key? Your hand shakes slightly as you reach for the scroll. You don't recognise the seal, but it is heavy and ornate, and fresh - still warm in fact! Your glance around the room again, but there is still no sign of an intruder, or a break-in. You break open the seal and unroll the document; the writing within is bold and angular, obviously written by a master scribe. The note reads:

lvl1 = 0

lvl2 = 0

lvl3 = 1

lvl4 = 1

lvl5 = 1

lvl6 = 2

lvl7 = 2

lvl8 = 2

lvl9 = 3

 

There is no signature and no explanatory note. Despite the simple message, you are struck with a sense of foreboding - you throw the note on the open fire in the hearth, and double the guard on your estate. It is several nights before you sleep peacefully.

 

 

 

I really do suck at writing

[Aranthys]

lvl1 = 0

lvl2 = 0

lvl3 = 1

lvl4 = 1

lvl5 = 1

lvl6 = 2

lvl7 = 2

lvl8 = 2

lvl9 = 3

Remember, Grater Malyson has be nerfed to give a -2 penality instead of -4. You would actually be nerfing all mage spells lower than level 6 with this table.

[Aranthys]

Dwarves and their kin have good saves thanks to their CON stat. There're potions of Invulnerability +5 to all (warriors only), Stone Form +3 to all (usable by all) and finally the ultimate Magic Shielding +20 (ok, these are too rare to be accounted). And some spells do grant boni to saves, notably Spirit Armor with it's +3 to all (or is it still in plans?).

Well, I don't really expect to have to always use potions of invulnerability or potions of magic shielding whenever I fight mages. These are not that common.

 

And believe me, if SCS AI starts using triggers with 3x disintegrate, you will see how powerful the spell is.

Any creature that is not magic resistant with a save of 1 has a 77% chance to take at least 50d4 damage without greater malyson or doom.

Add malyson and we are talking about a 60% chance to deal 100+d4 damage to the creature, and 80+% chance to deal 50d4 damage. If you find melee characters not powerful enough, just have fun against the AI with desintegrate, you will kill them with ease.

 

Remember, higher level spells also increase drastically in power, meaning that a failed save is much much more dangerous, usually resulting in massive damage, or death.

[Shaitan]

If your number are correct, we surely have to do something.

[Demivrgvs]

Ok, this is something I've tried to discuss tons of times (with no results), and it's really crucial. It seemed not even -5/-6 penalties were makin save or else spells so effective (at least no players actually reported this as something which was really affecting his/her game), but I'm open to suggestions.

 

The real issue imo are save or else spells. Those spells sucked big time in vanilla because without penalties not even a mass save or die spell like Wail of Banshee could be of much use, now I may have created the opposite situation. This is even more noticeable to single target save or else spells, which were almost completely useless. When I started working on SRV1 I was far more strict about remaining as PnP-esque as possible, but this issue can actually be reduced a lot by adding small secondary effects to most of these spells, in particular to single target ones. I've already done it to several spells, for example:

- Poison now works almost as a 'save for half' spell

- Disintegrate now deals 5d6 magic damage anyway

- Dolorous Decay still deals -1 to str, dex and con if the target saves

I think we can find cool ways to implement secondary effects if you think the concept is good (e.g. Feeblemind may cause some mind-affecting penalty for a limited time). AoE save or else spells are imo much less of a problem (e.g. look at how effective things like Web and Confusion are), but if we do cap the save penalty, some high level spells can make good use of it (e.g. Wail of the Banshee may cause deafness).

 

Now that being said, let me discuss the tables, and things that must be taken care of imo:

1) save penalty absolutely has to increase at each level for low-mid level spells imo

2) the highest save penalty imo should be reachable (if not already reached) by 7th level spells

3) my proposed table was based on many vanilla's values in order to not change them too much (e.g. Web from -2 to -1, Confusion from -2 to -3, Chaos keeps vanilla's -4), and keeps into account that Malison is not overpowered anymore.

 

1) Looking at some spells in particular like Charm-Dire Charm and Confusion-Chaos, it's easy to notice that unless their save penalty is different it's going to be difficult to make both of them appealing.

2) 8th level spells and especially 9th level ones really don't need to have higher save penalty compared to 7th level ones, as their powerful effects generally are more than enough to justify their level (Horrid Wilting anyone?). Furthermore, I don't think it would help the balance, and an earlier cap would actually help mid level spells to remain appealing.

 

That being said, if we do think -5 and -6 penalty are causing problems having tables like Aranthys and Ardanis suggest won't remove the core of the issue imo. You'd still have -5 and -6 penalties respectively, and you'd have it on the most powerful spells (e.g. Wail of the Banshee, Horrid Wilting). Thus I have two alternatives, but feel free to discuss this matter a lot, as it's really important.

 

 

Alternative 1 (just a lower cap, much less work for me )

Level 1 : No penalty

Level 2 : -1 to saves

Level 3 : -2 to saves

Level 4 : -3 to saves

Level 5 : -4 to saves

Level 6 : -4 to saves

Level 7 : -4 to saves

Level 8 : -4 to saves

Level 9 : -4 to saves

 

 

Alternative 2 (radical change, lot of work)

Level 1 : +2 to save

Level 2 : +1 to save

Level 3 : No penalty

Level 4 : -1 to saves

Level 5 : -2 to saves

Level 6 : -3 to saves

Level 7 : -4 to saves

Level 8 : -4 to saves

Level 9 : -4 to saves

 

 

Alternative 3 (ehm...)

Remove the table, have each spell works on its own a la AD&D. It was badly implemented imo (just look at Chaos and Domination. Both 5th level spells, the former had a -4 penalty with large AoE, the latter was single target and with only -2 penalty), but can be made to work fine. Anyway this is so radical and ivolves so much discussions that I surely can't even think about it for V3.

[Salk]

Well, after reading the motivations, it seems like the first table might already suit the job.

 

Lowering the cap might be an easy enough tweak to make it for V3?

 

In that case, people might test it and give feedback for the next version.

[DavidW]

Can I suggest coding this as a separate component, and adding multiple options? Then you can get feedback as to what works.

 

What are you going to do about already-present save penalties? (It's fairly significant that Symbol of Stun has a -4 save penalty, for instance; and one of the real appeals of Hold Person in BG1 is its save penalty).

I tentatively suggest something like a rounded up sum-of-squares rule, e.g Symbol of Stun, if the base penalty for L8 is -4, would be

 

sqrt(4^2+4^2)=about 5.5, rounded up to 6

 

I'm not sure why you think it would be a lot of work to do your option 2. Possibly this is a WEIDU familiarity issue? If so...

 

<<<<<<<< .../ds-inline/save_tables.2da
0 0 // a zero entry is needed
1 0
2 0
3 -1
4 -1
5 -1
6 -2
7 -2
8 -2
9 -3
>>>>>>>>

<<<<<<<< .../ds-inline/save_special.2da
SPWI816 -6 // Symbol:Stun gets -6, overriding default
>>>>>>>>

<<<<<<<< .../ds-inline/save_skip.2da
SPWI818 // Bigby's Clenched Fist: random spell I decided to skip as proof-of-concept
>>>>>>>>

// read in base values

COPY ~.../ds-inline/save_tables.2da~ ~override~
  READ_2DA_ENTRIES_NOW save_table_array 2
  FOR (i=0;i<~%save_table_array%~;i=i+1) BEGIN
  READ_2DA_ENTRY_FORMER ~save_table_array~ ~i~ 0 ~level~
  READ_2DA_ENTRY_FORMER ~save_table_array~ ~i~ 1 ~mod~
  SET $save_modifier(~%level%~)=~mod~
  END
BUT_ONLY

// read in exceptions

COPY ~.../ds-inline/save_special.2da~ ~override~
  READ_2DA_ENTRIES_NOW save_special_array 2
  FOR (i=0;i<~%save_special_array%~;i=i+1) BEGIN
  READ_2DA_ENTRY_FORMER ~save_special_array~ ~i~ 0 ~spell~
  READ_2DA_ENTRY_FORMER ~save_special_array~ ~i~ 1 ~mod~
  SET $save_exception(~%spell%~)=~mod~
  END
BUT_ONLY

COPY ~.../ds-inline/save_skip.2da~   ~override~
  READ_2DA_ENTRIES_NOW save_skip_array 2
  FOR (i=0;i<~%save_skip_array%~;i=i+1) BEGIN
  READ_2DA_ENTRY_FORMER ~save_skip_array~ ~i~ 0 ~spell~
  SPRINT $save_skip(~%spell%~) ~~
  END
BUT_ONLY

// edit spells

COPY_EXISTING_REGEXP GLOB
~SPWI[1-9].*\.SPL~ ~override~
~SPPR[1-9].*\.SPL~ ~override~
 // check if this spell is to be skipped
 SPRINT ~spellname~ ~%SOURCE_RES%~
 PATCH_IF !VARIABLE_IS_SET $save_skip(EVALUATE_BUFFER ~%spellname%~) THEN BEGIN
  // check if the spell is an exception
 PATCH_IF VARIABLE_IS_SET $save_exception (EVALUATE_BUFFER ~%spellname%~) THEN BEGIN
	 // if so, set the save mod according to the lookup table
	 SET ~newsave~=$save_exception (EVALUATE_BUFFER ~%spellname%~)
 END ELSE BEGIN
	 // if not, set the save mod according to the spell's level
	 READ_LONG 0x34 ~spell_level~
	 SET ~newsave~=$save_modifier(~%spell_level%~)
 END
	// get data on # abilities, effects
	READ_LONG 0x64 ~ab_off~
	READ_SHORT 0x68 ~num_ab~
	READ_LONG 0x6a ~eff_off~
	// go through all the abilities
	FOR (i=0;i<~num_ab~;i=i+1) BEGIN
	   // get effect data for each ability
	   READ_SHORT 0x1e + ~ab_off~ + 0x28*~i~ ~num_eff~
	   READ_SHORT 0x20 + ~ab_off~ + 0x28*~i~ ~eff_ind~
	   // go through all the effects
	   FOR (j=0;j<~num_eff~;j=j+1) BEGIN
			  // check if it gives a saving throw
			  READ_LONG 0x24 + ~eff_off~+~eff_ind~*0x30 + ~j~*0x30 ~savecheck~
			  PATCH_IF !~savecheck~=0 BEGIN
					// if it does, modify the bonus
					WRITE_LONG 0x28 + ~eff_off~+~eff_ind~*0x30 + ~j~*0x30 ~newsave~

			  END
	   END
	END


 END 
BUT_ONLY

 

Tested, but not extensively. Obviously, for multiple options just have multiple tables and choose which one to read in.

[Demivrgvs]

Can I suggest coding this as a separate component, and adding multiple options? Then you can get feedback as to what works.

Well, within SR I really can't do that, because I do need to know which save penalty each spell has to decide its various effects. For example if you take Wail of the Banshee:

* with no penalty (a la vanilla) it would absolutely need a powerful secondary effect because the main one almost never work

* with -6 penalty (a la SR) it really shouldn't have any secondary effect as the main one is already outstanding

* with a -3/-4 penalty it would probably need a decent secondary effect, as avoiding the main one wouldn't be so difficult and the spell has to compete with things like HLAs and Time Stop

 

I'd personally allow multiple options only to my beta testers, while the official release has to take into account save penalties imo.

 

What are you going to do about already-present save penalties? (It's fairly significant that Symbol of Stun has a -4 save penalty, for instance; and one of the real appeals of Hold Person in BG1 is its save penalty).

As I said I've tried to keep original save penalties as similar as possible to their old version.

 

Hold Person has a -1 penalty if casted as a 2nd level divine spell, but as 3rd level arcane spell it has a -2 penalty. This makes it work almost as in vanilla, but it also allow me to "compensate" somewhat the higher level slot used by mages. It's a quite good solution imo.

 

Symbol of Stun currently has -6 penalty being a 7th level spell, but if we opt for "alternative 1" it would still keep vanilla's -4, you don't have to worry about that.

 

I tentatively suggest something like a rounded up sum-of-squares rule, e.g Symbol of Stun, if the base penalty for L8 is -4, would be

 

sqrt(4^2+4^2)=about 5.5, rounded up to 6

I'm not following you. If you mean SR save penalties should be applied on top of pre-existing ones I disagree for various reasons such as the one above mentioned of "Chaos vs. Domination".

 

I'm not sure why you think it would be a lot of work to do your option 2. Possibly this is a WEIDU familiarity issue? If so...

Yeah.

[DavidW]

For what it's worth, I actually use Wail of the Banshee and Domination in SCS. Wail is nice when players and their summons are piling on a lich or something: even if each individual is reasonably likely to save, the odds of one of them failing are respectable. Dominating an enemy is materially more useful than just confusing them, particularly if you prioritise a fighter-type.

 

If you mean SR save penalties should be applied on top of pre-existing ones I disagree for various reasons such as the one above mentioned of "Chaos vs. Domination".

Difference of approach: I tend to design dumb algorithms and then tweak them; you tend to handcraft from the start.

 

I'm not sure why you think it would be a lot of work to do your option 2. Possibly this is a WEIDU familiarity issue? If so...

Yeah.

 

 

I really recommend getting the hang of WEIDU patching. It's often quicker, but more importantly, it's usually much easier to tweak your mod later and to keep track of what you've done. (Still, as always, everyone only has so much time.)

[Demivrgvs]

For what it's worth, I actually use Wail of the Banshee and Domination in SCS. Wail is nice when players and their summons are piling on a lich or something: even if each individual is reasonably likely to save, the odds of one of them failing are respectable. Dominating an enemy is materially more useful than just confusing them, particularly if you prioritise a fighter-type.

Well, being appealing for a lich isn't the same thing as being appealing for players, you know it. Wail of the Banshee may work for them especially if players use summons (as they generally have bad saves), but I do think not even a single player here would prefer WotB over Time Stop, Improved Alcacrity, Shapechange, and many other spells if the death effect has not even a -1 penalty to the save.

 

Regarding Chaos vs. Domination let's not forget the former can affect tons of targets, the latter can affect only a single target. Add on top of it that Chaos had a much better save penalty (-4 penalty instead of -2) and I think no one can doubt which of the two spells was more powerful.