Spell rev suggestions

[Strontium Dog]

Hi,

 

I'm having a very, interesting, very successful mage-dominated game having combined the spell50 mod followed by many spell-rev-modified spells such as conjure elemental/demon etc. added as well. Thanks for allowing us to decide which spells we wanted modified - otherwise I would have been forced to choose between installing either the spell_rev or the spell50 mod.

 

I seem to recall that the disintegrate spell in spell_rev has a -6 save penalty but merely inflicts a lousy 150hp damage if successful. Given that the (spell-rev version of the)flesh to stone spell has a -5(?) saving-throw penalty, ,, and is a spell that affects an opponent in much the same way as the old disintegrate spell, I do think that disintegrate should be allowed to wipe out an opponent completely along with a saving-throw penalty of -5 or whatever(though allowing items to be dropped on the ground).

 

I also am not too fond of the limited variety of summoned creatures in the game. I'd love more types(eg:- summon marilith at 1 spell-level below summon balor/pit-fiend).

[Demivrgvs]

I seem to recall that the disintegrate spell in spell_rev has a -6 save penalty but merely inflicts a lousy 150hp damage if successful. Given that the (spell-rev version of the)flesh to stone spell has a -5(?) saving-throw penalty, ,, and is a spell that affects an opponent in much the same way as the old disintegrate spell, I do think that disintegrate should be allowed to wipe out an opponent completely along with a saving-throw penalty of -5 or whatever(though allowing items to be dropped on the ground).

This is how Disintegration work with SR:

 

"Upon casting this spell at another creature, a thin green ray shoots unerringly from the caster's fingertip toward the target. Upon contact, the creature must make a saving throw vs. spell at -5 or suffer 2d6 points of magic damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6). A creature that makes a successful save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage. This spell has no affect on clothing or equipment carried by the target."

 

 

I also am not too fond of the limited variety of summoned creatures in the game. I'd love more types(eg:- summon marilith at 1 spell-level below summon balor/pit-fiend).

The problem is that adding and balancing new summons is not an easy task. SR v4 will have some new summons and fiends will receive a lot of attention but the Marilith is outstandingly too powerful for an 8th lvl spell.

 

P.S I'll do something similiar to this (only for summoned fiends, and with few small but noticeable changes), but even without trying it myself I think I can highly recommend aVENGER's mod to anyone.

[Strontium Dog]

IMO, it would be more fair to have a successful save with disintegrate doing only half-damage. Must have got that 150hp figure mixed up with the harm spell description.

 

The Exnem mod's poltergeist spell(at least I think it's exnem's mod) has monsters becoming more powerful ones as the caster's level increases. While I would agree that many of exnem's mods are rather too powerful(once you get vampiric illithids destroying golems with their devour brain attack, which shouldn't be legal), that bit re different monsters appearing at different caster levels would allow an 8th level spell without it being too powerful(eg:- the summon fiend gets you a glabrezu at 16th level as normal I believe, a 25th level caster could instead get a Marilith etc.)

 

One other vague suggestion:- I installed the spell rev version of the prismatic spray spell(-6 to saving-throws) but I'm not keen on the fact that the character stays static and largely defenceless while casting this longish spell with the pc casting it always at the same spot and in a limited range. Perhps that could be changed?

[Demivrgvs]

IMO, it would be more fair to have a successful save with disintegrate doing only half-damage. Must have got that 150hp figure mixed up with the harm spell description.

20d6 on a failed save?! That's incredibly overpowered for a 6th level spell.

 

The Exnem mod's poltergeist spell(at least I think it's exnem's mod) has monsters becoming more powerful ones as the caster's level increases. While I would agree that many of exnem's mods are rather too powerful(once you get vampiric illithids destroying golems with their devour brain attack, which shouldn't be legal), that bit re different monsters appearing at different caster levels would allow an 8th level spell without it being too powerful(eg:- the summon fiend gets you a glabrezu at 16th level as normal I believe, a 25th level caster could instead get a Marilith etc.)

No offense intended, but if you play with spell50 mod and Exnem's mod it's pretty clear that you're not exactly the target audience for SR.

 

If you're accustomed to 40d6 fireballs and summoning spells with vampiric illithids and demi-liches I fear we have a radically different point of view of what is "balanced" or "fair".

 

Most SR's summoning spells are already A LOT more powerful than PnP, and I don't think I'll make them even more powerful. Perhaps some of them may need some improvements, but Summon Fiend surely doesn't need a more powerful fiend, as SR's Glabrezu already is an outstandingly powerful killing machine.

 

One other vague suggestion:- I installed the spell rev version of the prismatic spray spell(-6 to saving-throws) but I'm not keen on the fact that the character stays static and largely defenceless while casting this longish spell with the pc casting it always at the same spot and in a limited range. Perhps that could be changed?

Are you sure you're using SR v3? Because it doesn't hold the caster on place after completition (e.g. like vanilla's spells with cone-shaped AoE)...are you instead suggesting to lower the casting time itself? I'd be against it though, as a spell as powerful as this shouldn't have fast casting time.

[Strontium Dog]

IMO, it would be more fair to have a successful save with disintegrate doing only half-damage. Must have got that 150hp figure mixed up with the harm spell description.

20d6 on a failed save?! That's incredibly overpowered for a 6th level spell.

 

Well, we will have to agree to disagree on that issue. You see, from my POV, whenever I played the game in days when it was largely unmodded(and unaltered by me except for tdd)

), I found, again and again, that with spells that were too nerfed in power, that mages would invariably end up pathetically weak and ineffective re causing damage, by comparison to fighters who could not only use dispel magic(eg;- paladins with holy avenger) to knock down mage's defenses etc. but who could also unleash up to 10 attacks per round, not counting extra-damage-causing critical hits, aided by the greater whirlwind ability or the various belts giving enhanced strength. By contrast, most mages have limited variety of spells available (without extra mods like the wild mage mod etc.), limited number of spells per day, and most of their spells are nerfed at 10th(fireball) or 20th level. I can only go by my own experience and state that by the time throne of bhaal comes along, fireball is virtually useless as a spell and one cannot go around casting 3 horrid wilting or 3 dragon's breath spells during every single encounter(well, unless one rests before every single room/encounter, but I view that as cheating). And now that the SCS2 AI/Tactics has come about, mages need to be even stronger, IMO.

 

No offense intended, but if you play with spell50 mod and Exnem's mod it's pretty clear that you're not exactly the target audience for SR.

 

If you're accustomed to 40d6 fireballs and summoning spells with vampiric illithids and demi-liches I fear we have a radically different point of view of what is "balanced" or "fair".

Actually, with my current game(I'm in the early stages of BG2, with most megamods other than NEJ to go, I don't expect my triple-classed PCs to ever reach 40th level, even though I've compensated for their triple-classed slow level-gaining by artificially tripling their xp via a trick I got from another mod - even after doing the other megamods, spellhold, tob etc., I doubt they'll reach more than 35th level, by the end, probably much less.

 

At any rate, I totally agree with you that many of those extra

Exnem spells are overpowered and would wish many of them nerfed a little, it's just that I like the variety in spells that is created and the variety of creatures summoned by the poltergeist spell. I'm not suggesting that you change your idea of the SR mod at all,

, but perhaps low-powered spells such as "summon water elemental" or "summon ice elemental" for example would be of similiar power but still provide variety

 

 

Are you sure you're using SR v3? Because it doesn't hold the caster on place after completition (e.g. like vanilla's spells with cone-shaped AoE)...are you instead suggesting to lower the casting time itself? I'd be against it though, as a spell as powerful as this shouldn't have fast casting time.

I thought I was using spell rev v3. That is I downloaded spell_rev sometime in november 2008 for a december bwp megamod install.

 

At any rate, I'm not really criticising, I find many of the spells altered by spell-rev to be far better than anything provided elsewhere

(such as the 7th level spell sphere of chaos etc.) and actually quite powerful in some cases. I guess I'm just always aiming for (my version of) the perfect megamod install.

[Ardanis]

I can only go by my own experience and state that by the time throne of bhaal comes along, fireball is virtually useless as a spell and one cannot go around casting 3 horrid wilting or 3 dragon's breath spells during every single encounter(well, unless one rests before every single room/encounter, but I view that as cheating). And now that the SCS2 AI/Tactics has come about, mages need to be even stronger, IMO.

Agreed. Except it was my understanding that wizards should unleash magic only against powerful opponents, whom you don't usually meet every odd room. For intermeiate skirmishes, fighters are supposed to take grunts out without serious wizards' assistance.

 

thought I was using spell rev v3. That is I downloaded spell_rev sometime in november 2008 for a december bwp megamod install.

Nope, v2.9 came out in Jan (Feb?) 2009, and v3 dates Sept 2009. You're using v2 then, where abovementioned Disintegrate inflicts 100 damage instead of later 2d6/lvl.

[Demivrgvs]

it was my understanding that wizards should unleash magic only against powerful opponents, whom you don't usually meet every odd room. For intermediate skirmishes, fighters are supposed to take grunts out without serious wizards' assistance.

I was going to say the same.

 

For me D&D, and thus BG, has to be played with a party. Fighters have their role (front line tanks), and mages have their own (heavy cannons artillery).

 

...I found, again and again, that with spells that were too nerfed in power, that mages would invariably end up pathetically weak and ineffective...

No offense intended, but you probably don't know how to effectively use a mage, because there's absolutely NO WAY a fighter would win 1 vs. 1 against an archmage.

 

Absolute Immunity alone is enough for me to say that (not even the cheesy Carsomyr can beat it), before taking into account contingencies, triggers, Stoneskin, Mislead, Simulacrum, Time Stops, ...

 

By contrast, most mages have limited variety of spells available (without extra mods like the wild mage mod etc.), limited number of spells per day, and most of their spells are nerfed at 10th(fireball) or 20th level.

A spell which stops increasing its effectiveness at 20th level is nerfed?! Sorry but I cannot agree less...you want an easy example of how much damage a mage can dish out in a single instant? Trigger: 3x Chain Lighting. That's 60D6 points of damage to first target (210 on average), and then 30D6 to ANYONE in the area.

 

...one cannot go around casting 3 horrid wilting or 3 dragon's breath spells during every single encounter(well, unless one rests before every single room/encounter, but I view that as cheating).

Mages are not supposed to do that, for the easy encounters fighters should be able to handle the situation pretty well. Mages can make their job easier using mid level spells, or even low level ones (as I'm pretty sure a lot of 1st-3rd lvl spells a very useful even in ToB), while keeping the most powerful 8th-9th lvl spells for the main encounters (usually 1 or 2 in a day).

 

I don't expect my triple-classed PCs to ever reach 40th level, even though I've compensated for their triple-classed slow level-gaining by artificially tripling their xp via a trick I got from another mod...

That's why I was saying we see this game in completely different way. Getting 3x experience to "compensate" the triple class and using CTRL-Q is almost the same thing for me, it's cheating...even more than resting 3-4 times in a row to regain spells within places like Mind Flayers city or De'Arnise Keep (any DM would laugh in a PnP session if someone dare to propose something like that).

[Strontium Dog]

I was going to say the same.

 

For me D&D, and thus BG, has to be played with a party. Fighters have their role (front line tanks), and mages have their own (heavy cannons artillery).

 

I don't deny fighters have a part to play, it's just that their capacity to deal damage and wipe out opponents is far greater than a mage's. Mind you, it's even worse in Neverwinter Nights game, as my mage in that game routinely got wasted in campaigns.

 

No offense intended, but you probably don't know how to effectively use a mage, because there's absolutely NO WAY a fighter would win 1 vs. 1 against an archmage.

 

Absolute Immunity alone is enough for me to say that (not even the cheesy Carsomyr can beat it), before taking into account contingencies, triggers, Stoneskin, Mislead, Simulacrum, Time Stops, ...

 

There's a flaw in your reasoning. Some of the mods(and I believe even in the unmodded game) allow +6 weapons which bypass absolute immunity from what I understand. Then some of the weapons like carsomyr or a hammer sold in the copper coronet can negate magical defences with repeated hits. Basically, all a fighter has to do is carry enough magic items to be resistant to key spells(eg:- ring of freedom of action etc., an item giving some magic resistance, great saves for a high-level fighter), have a weapon like carsomyr, a few high-level abilities like greater whirlwind attack and last enough rounds and the mage will soon run out of spells and can then be finished.

A spell which stops increasing its effectiveness at 20th level is nerfed?! Sorry but I cannot agree less...you want an easy example of how much damage a mage can dish out in a single instant? Trigger: 3x Chain Lighting. That's 60D6 points of damage to first target (210 on average), and then 30D6 to ANYONE in the area.

 

I'm not suggesting that 3 spells cast 1 after the other

aren't effective, it's just the mage would soon run out of such spells.

Mages are not supposed to do that, for the easy encounters fighters should be able to handle the situation pretty well. Mages can make their job easier using mid level spells, or even low level ones (as I'm pretty sure a lot of 1st-3rd lvl spells a very useful even in ToB), while keeping the most powerful 8th-9th lvl spells for the main encounters (usually 1 or 2 in a day).

 

You've already had to improve a large number of bg2 standard low-level spells that were originally useless against any high-level character(color spray/sleep etc.) Previous to installing your mod, I would merely be casting just mirror-image for my level 2 spells or magic missile for level 1 etc. and I'd felt my mage was mostly wasted.

 

Minor error:- I'd thought that the sphere of chaos(which got spell-casters in the area to get wild-surges) was a spell-rev version but presumably it was from the wild mage mod instead, given the wild-surges aspect.

 

That's why I was saying we see this game in completely different way. Getting 3x experience to "compensate" the triple class and using CTRL-Q is almost the same thing for me, it's cheating...even more than resting 3-4 times in a row to regain spells within places like Mind Flayers city or De'Arnise Keep (any DM would laugh in a PnP session if someone dare to propose something like that).

I guess my aim is to make mages more able to hold their own for longer periods. This is especially the case with regard to the SCS2 AI which allows mages to automatically have any number of contingencies/spell-immunities etc. My aim is basically that the mage doesn't run out of spells during 1 major quest(such as the Temple/Sewers/Unseeing Eye megaquest, for example). The alternative would be that mages would run out of spells at crucial moments and party members would then have to run away and come back when hostiles had run out of spells or rest and come back. Hardly realistic.

[Demivrgvs]

I don't deny fighters have a part to play, it's just that their capacity to deal damage and wipe out opponents is far greater than a mage's. Mind you, it's even worse in Neverwinter Nights game, as my mage in that game routinely got wasted in campaigns.

NWN is not BG, it's a completely different story there because you don't have all the key spells:

- no PfMW-like spells

- no contingencies

- no spell triggers

- no Time Stop

- Stoneskin grants "only" damage reduction instead of completely blocking physical attacks

- and so on...

 

No offense intended, but you probably don't know how to effectively use a mage, because there's absolutely NO WAY a fighter would win 1 vs. 1 against an archmage.

There's a flaw in your reasoning. Some of the mods(and I believe even in the unmodded game) allow +6 weapons which bypass absolute immunity from what I understand. Then some of the weapons like carsomyr or a hammer sold in the copper coronet can negate magical defences with repeated hits. Basically, all a fighter has to do is carry enough magic items to be resistant to key spells(eg:- ring of freedom of action etc., an item giving some magic resistance, great saves for a high-level fighter), have a weapon like carsomyr, a few high-level abilities like greater whirlwind attack and last enough rounds and the mage will soon run out of spells and can then be finished.

I see a bigger flaw in your reasoning, as you're comparing a "naked" mage against a fighter equipped like a god's avatar!!

 

Let's assume Absolute Immunity doesn't work as its name suggests, and let's assume the mage is "naked"...because else (with things like vanilla's Staff of the Magi and its invisibility at will) there's absolutely no match.

 

Backup:

Contincency (when hit or injured): Shadow Door

Minor Sequencer: Invisibility + Mirror Image

Spell Trigger: not really necessary, but you can do wonders (Malison + Feeblemind + Polymorph Other for fun) even with low level spells (e.g. 3x Flame Arrow for 30d6 points of damage)

 

1st round

Chain Contingency: PfMW + "insert here a lot of powerful combinations" (e.g. Mislead + Simulacrum is very fun)

Spell Sequencer: Stoneskin + Fireshield (blue) + Fireshield (red) (facing this with a non-enchanted weapon is quite a problem)

 

2nd round

Time Stop (and bye bye fighter)

 

3rd round

Unleash Hell

 

 

And even a mid level mage can easily make himself almost untouchable

 

1st round

Contincency (on sight): PfMW

Spell Sequencer: Stoneskin + Fireshield (blue) + Fireshield (red)

 

And I can think tons of alternative tactics that would work against almost any kind of multiple resistancies/immunities the god-like fighter may have.

 

Getting 3x experience to "compensate" the triple class and using CTRL-Q is almost the same thing for me, it's cheating...even more than resting 3-4 times in a row....

I guess my aim is to make mages more able to hold their own for longer periods. This is especially the case with regard to the SCS2 AI which allows mages to automatically have any number of contingencies/spell-immunities etc. My aim is basically that the mage doesn't run out of spells during 1 major quest(such as the Temple/Sewers/Unseeing Eye megaquest, for example). The alternative would be that mages would run out of spells at crucial moments and party members would then have to run away and come back when hostiles had run out of spells or rest and come back. Hardly realistic.

Simply don't waste your spell on every critter you face, and preserve your powerful spells for worthy opponents. Let the mage behave as any mage would in PnP or fantasy lore.

[yarpen]

In IWD somehow wizards WITHOUT Protection from Magic Weapons (cheating number one), Chain of Contingencies (cheating number two) and Time Stop (cheating number three) can be powerfull addition to party. Maybe that's because in IWD wizards do need fighter's strong arm (so it's how it should be) because they shouldn't be capable of render themself immune to everything - fighters cannot slay a lot of creatures on great area (Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Whiltings), become absolutely immune to magic or even bypass wizard's protections.

[DavidW]

This is especially the case with regard to the SCS2 AI which allows mages to automatically have any number of contingencies/spell-immunities etc.

 

They don't, actually (or, not deliberately). I try fairly hard to keep to what the core-game rules allow in terms of numbers of contingencies, sequencers and the like.

[Strontium Dog]

I see a bigger flaw in your reasoning, as you're comparing a "naked" mage against a fighter equipped like a god's avatar!!

 

Let's assume Absolute Immunity doesn't work as its name suggests, and let's assume the mage is "naked"...because else (with things like vanilla's Staff of the Magi and its invisibility at will) there's absolutely no match.

 

Backup:

Contincency (when hit or injured): Shadow Door

Minor Sequencer: Invisibility + Mirror Image

Spell Trigger: not really necessary, but you can do wonders (Malison + Feeblemind + Polymorph Other for fun) even with low level spells (e.g. 3x Flame Arrow for 30d6 points of damage)

 

1st round

Chain Contingency: PfMW + "insert here a lot of powerful combinations" (e.g. Mislead + Simulacrum is very fun)

Spell Sequencer: Stoneskin + Fireshield (blue) + Fireshield (red) (facing this with a non-enchanted weapon is quite a problem)

 

2nd round

Time Stop (and bye bye fighter)

 

3rd round

Unleash Hell

 

 

And even a mid level mage can easily make himself almost untouchable

 

1st round

Contincency (on sight): PfMW

Spell Sequencer: Stoneskin + Fireshield (blue) + Fireshield (red)

 

And I can think tons of alternative tactics that would work against almost any kind of multiple resistancies/immunities the god-like fighter may have.

 

I usually use chain contingency with horrid wilting also use timestop improved alacrity, but some of your ideas I'll admit weren't ones I usually use such as simulacrum combined with mislead and spell trigger etc. Must try them in future thanks. As for the above I was imagining a mage with protection against a fighter with cloak of mirrors etc., as in vanilla game

[Ardanis]

Jeez, deja-vu! Couple of weeks ago there was nearly identical heated debate on russian boards, on the fighter vs wizard matter.

 

Fighter was a berserker, wearing all top items, The Cloak, something else and was boasting invincibility, uber saves, immunity to most every debilitating effect and complete superiority to a wizard in every possible way. Who, as it turned out for extra fun, was implied to wear no stuff at all!

 

Skipping long rants it took me and few others to calm the guy down, especially since Demi has mentioned some of them too, I'll only highlight one point:

 

if you're using vanilla Cloak for your fighter, then why can't you use vanilla Invis Staff for your wizard?

[Jarno Mikkola]

By contrast, most mages have limited variety of spells available (without extra mods like the wild mage mod etc.), limited number of spells per day, and most of their spells are nerfed at 10th(fireball) or 20th level.

A spell which stops increasing its effectiveness at 20th level is nerfed?! Sorry but I cannot agree less...you want an easy example of how much damage a mage can dish out in a single instant? Trigger: 3x Chain Lighting. That's 60D6 points of damage to first target (210 on average), and then 30D6 to ANYONE in the area.

Well, part of the problem might be Strontium Dog's character hit points, as he gains triple xp, so as normally above level 9 all the mages get 1 hit point per level, at level 30+ it has ~54+21*1=75, his gains 6: 1 from mage, 2 from thief and 3 from fighter class. That's a lot of hit point on level 30+ chars. ~(10/3+6/3+4/3+4)*9+21*6=222+ hit points, that's both with a constitution of 18.

 

Of course a few of his enemies too are a bit more tough, as their spawning depend on the party level... but that shouldn't be much of an obstacle.

[Strontium Dog]

This is especially the case with regard to the SCS2 AI which allows mages to automatically have any number of contingencies/spell-immunities etc.

 

They don't, actually (or, not deliberately). I try fairly hard to keep to what the core-game rules allow in terms of numbers of contingencies, sequencers and the like.

Well, thanks to your excellent AI mod I'm finding yuan-ti mages to be absolutely frightening with their multiple stone-skin contingencies etc.,, whereas in the unmodded game I easily slaughtered them.