Masterwork Items

[Ardanis]

I suppose it's for v4 only, but here're few thoughts

 

Weapons

Instead of turning +1 weapons into MW, thus leaving quite a gap, it's better to make all +1 a MW and reduce all higherly enchanted by one. Combined with SR's upgraded Mantles, it will finally make those two a real alternative to PfMW.

In other words, the actual enchantment level will be a serious bonus on it's own.I'm only unsure if some current +1 items will be ok turned into non-magical. I'd say yes, though - facing an immune creature will be more interesting, and PfMW will have more ways to be countered with.

 

Armors

Well, I think nothing here, really.

 

Belts, Boots, Cloaks, Gloves, Helms

Some of you might have seen the 'Sensible NPC behavior' thread in Mod Ideas section on SHS. OP let me to overtake the project, so I've been thinking about what can be done to enhance Athkatla. Skipping things that don't belong here anyway, there's one related to IR - as we all know, thaco matters little in BG2, let alone ToB, as even a mid-level rogue can easily make a hedgehog of an armored guard with nothing but mundane bow/arrows. So, I thought, since we can't just give +3 armor and shield to every guard and soldier in city to provide them with a fighting chance, why not to try the different approach - supply people with relatively cheap armor-like items.

 

I've 99% decided to include this component, but IR might want to do the same, so here's what I suggest - a variety of non-enchanted items with minor bonuses and penalties. Examples:

 

Plate Boots: +1 AC (and extra +1 vs slashing), -20% Move Silently, -1 save vs breath, -10% electrical res

Leather Gloves: +1 vs slashing, +10% acrane spellcasting failure

Cloak: +1 vs missiles, +5% Hide in Shadows

Hood: immunity to critical hits, +5% Hide in Shadows

Full Helm: +1 AC (none vs blunt), immunity to crits, -1 DEX

Belt: +1 vs slashing/piercing

etc.

 

I think you get the picture. Some magical items can use the template too, like magical helmets already granting +1 AC in IR. It may have a drawback of party very quickly raising to 'invincible' level, but if we indeed fix the horror of non-proficient fighter opponents with all stats being at 9, it more or less becomes balanced out.

[Shaitan]

wow, I love you

[yarpen]

What about granting to items some alternative functions? I'd love to see Belts activating Quick Item menu.

 

Cloak: +1 to AC vs. missles; black ones +5% to hide in shadows

Full helm: immunity to critical hits, +1 to AC, -1 to ThaC0

Belt: allows to store three items in Quick Access buttons.

 

Personally I do like this idea, but I'm not sure that IR is a good place for that. Still, I'd like to hear Demi's opinion.

[Jarno Mikkola]

What about granting to items some alternative functions? I'd love to see Belts activating Quick Item menu.

You really wish to go and police such a thing? What if I don't have a belt and I want my spell book have more slots, are you going to give me some?... and just in case it was unclear:

DO NOT GO AND LIMIT THE GUI MORE THAN THE SMALL SPACE IT ALREADY HAS!

This is because you can't build the same kind of GUI the Diablo2 has where when you put on a belt, the GUI can extend, 1, 2, or even three rows. Now, it might work if we could extend the amount of tabs the GUI has, but I think it's hard to code such features.

 

And so it's remembered, the head slot items do not make the creature immune to the Critical hit, it just make it immune to the *2 damage, so the hit will still be always landing automatically.

[Demivrgvs]

Weapons

Instead of turning +1 weapons into MW, thus leaving quite a gap, it's better to make all +1 a MW and reduce all higherly enchanted by one. Combined with SR's upgraded Mantles, it will finally make those two a real alternative to PfMW.

In other words, the actual enchantment level will be a serious bonus on it's own.I'm only unsure if some current +1 items will be ok turned into non-magical. I'd say yes, though - facing an immune creature will be more interesting, and PfMW will have more ways to be countered with.

Well, we discussed the same with Mike ages ago, because he felt like you that going from non-magical to +2 is a huge gap, and I agree. The problem was that such change affects opponents too, and they need +2 weapons in some cases, I think David talked about something like this too when he planned the same component for SCSII.

 

I'm indeed on your side on this, but if we "nerf" +2 weapons into +1 we MUST include one tweak within the component: hell's trial must make charname immune only to non-magical weapons, and not to +1 ones too.

 

 

Belts, Boots, Cloaks, Gloves, Helms

...as we all know, thaco matters little in BG2, let alone ToB, as even a mid-level rogue can easily make a hedgehog of an armored guard with nothing but mundane bow/arrows. So, I thought, since we can't just give +3 armor and shield to every guard and soldier in city to provide them with a fighting chance, why not to try the different approach - supply people with relatively cheap armor-like items.

 

... Examples:

 

Plate Boots: +1 AC (and extra +1 vs slashing), -20% Move Silently, -1 save vs breath, -10% electrical res

Leather Gloves: +1 vs slashing, +10% acrane spellcasting failure

Cloak: +1 vs missiles, +5% Hide in Shadows

Hood: immunity to critical hits, +5% Hide in Shadows

Full Helm: +1 AC (none vs blunt), immunity to crits, -1 DEX

Belt: +1 vs slashing/piercing

etc.

Mmm...after thinking on it a little I have to say I'm not enough convinced this solution would be good. Even if conceptually I agree with you, the tweak overcomplicates the game imo, and wouldn't have enough impact to matter.

 

I'd need much more time to fully explain my point of view, but I'll try to be short. Opponents in general would benefit a lot more from other tweaks such as correct stats/abilities assignment and better use of potions (e.g. having opponents use IR's Potion of Defense would grant them MUCH MORE protection than having ALL your listed items equipped). The latter is already partially covered by SCS (I'm eternally grateful to David for it), but being it restricted to vanilla's potions its current implementation is somewhat limited (let's hope David is interested in what I did here).

 

Few more thoughts...

 

1. I have an additional tweak in mind for you which involves stores and prices to "justify/balance" the following statement (I'll suggest it in the relevant topic asap). Mid-level opponents can be made more tough using "semi-common" magical equipment such as Cloak of Protection or Gauntlets of Parrying, no? To balance it we would have to "keep under control" the amount of gold players can achieve by collecting these items.

 

2. This would be considerably harder to implement but fighters could hugely benefit from KR's Defensive Stance (-x thac0, +x AC). In theory you could even implement it in a "passive" way by improving their AC when it seems aboslutely necessary, players wouldn't notice the difference, and I don't think they would feel cheated if they find some more skilled opponent who seems harder to hit. I'd prefer this over adding tons of "armor-like" items to the game.

 

3. Having non-magical helmets grant +1 AC and -1 to THAC0 is "sensible", but it would make most magical helmets look a lot less "cool". The same is true for other items.

[yarpen]

Weapons

Instead of turning +1 weapons into MW, thus leaving quite a gap, it's better to make all +1 a MW and reduce all higherly enchanted by one. Combined with SR's upgraded Mantles, it will finally make those two a real alternative to PfMW.

In other words, the actual enchantment level will be a serious bonus on it's own.I'm only unsure if some current +1 items will be ok turned into non-magical. I'd say yes, though - facing an immune creature will be more interesting, and PfMW will have more ways to be countered with.

And yeah, I fully agree!

[Ardanis]

The problem was that such change affects opponents too, and they need +2 weapons in some cases, I think David talked about something like this too when he planned the same component for SCSII.

I know. For example, allies would be unable to harm ancient vampires in Bodhi's lair, Ch.6. It mostly concerns assassins, who spawn right next to a vampire spawn point and therefore are forced to into one of the largest skirmishes in game. Not that there's a big hope for them to survive, but whatever.

 

*sigh* I took a look at paladin allies... Demi, I trust there's no need to tell what I saw there...

Cheers, and Bodhi is only +1 immune. Then why the hell some of her minions are +2 immune? Or maybe they aren't minions but allies too, kinda like ours?

Paladin and thief allies come with +2 mostly, so it's only a matter or reequipping them. RR's component does upgrade assassins to +3, but I think together we can work it out somehow.

 

I can't remember if there're more instances. I'll run searches to make sure nothing is missed.

 

 

There're another two rather important points of interest to discuss:

1) How should the lowering of enchantment be handled for normal magic weaponry. Either ITMs are lowered, thus affecting all mods that may be installed next, or instead all CREs, AREs and STOs receive an assortiment swap.

The latter is more compatibility friendly (if painful to code), but then what do we do if somebody sets loose a mob of +3 wielding goblins?

2) I assume some unique items shouldn't lose in enchantment, especially those that closely match PhP versions. Which ones?

I see three subcomponents here, one tones down only plain +X weapons, another - part of uniques too, and the third - everything. The question is relevant for the second option, which imo should be the default one.

 

PS Yeah, and BAMs. IIRC IWD1 has green icons for masterwork, so it's not a problem. But poor Hammer of Corrosion won't be happy.

[Ardanis]

Bold - I'm certain it needs nerfing

Italic - maybe yes, maybe not

Normal - leave it be

 

 

Axes

 

Bala's Axe

Stonefire +2

Frostreaver +2

Hangard's Axe +2

Azuredge +3

Rifthome Axe +3

K'logarath +4

Axe of the Unyielding +3

Axe of the Unyielding +4

 

 

Bastard Swords

 

Lawgiver +1

Taragarth +1

Albruin +2

Jhor The Bleeder +2

Sword of Balduran +3

Blade of Searing +3

Daystar +4

Foebane +4

Foebane +5

Purifier +4

Purifier +5

 

 

Short Bows

 

Tuigan Bow +1

Eagle Bow +2

Tansheron's Bow +3

Iron Bow of Gesen +4

Darkfire Bow +4

Darkfire Bow +5

 

 

Long Bows

 

Long Bow of Markmanship +2

Elven Court Bow +3

Mana Bow +4

Taralash +4

Taralash +5

 

 

Composite Bows

 

Ripper +2

Strong Arm +2

Heartseeker +3

 

 

Clubs

 

Blackblood +2

Gnasher +2

Bone Club +3

The Root of the Problem +3

Club of Detonation +3

Club of Detonation +4

 

 

Light Crossbows

 

Light Crossbow of Speed +1

Necaradan's Crossbow +3

Firetooth +4

Firetooth +5

 

 

Heavy Crossbows

 

Heavy Crossbow of Accuracy +1

Heavy Crossbow of Searing +2

Giant Hair Crossbow +3

Crossbow of Affliction +4

 

 

Daggers

 

Dagger of <CHARNAME> +1

Neb's Nasty Cutter +1

Longtooth +2

Dagger of Venom +2

Pixie Prick +2

Stiletto of Demarchess +2

Boomerang Dagger +2

Fire Tooth +3

Spider Fang +3

Dagger of the Star +4

Dagger of the Star +5

 

 

Flails

 

Flail of Submission +2

Defender of Easthaven +2

Flail of Ages // *sigh*

 

 

Halberds

 

Suryris's Blade +2

Duskblade +2

Wyrmcleaver +3

Dragon's Breath +3

Blackmist +4

The Wave +4

Ravager +4

Ravager +5

 

 

Katanas

 

Dak'kon's Zerth Blade +2

Malakar +2

Celestial Fury +3

Hindo's Doom +3

Hindo's Doom +4

 

 

Wakizashis

 

Yamato +3

 

 

Long Swords

 

Blade of Roses +1

Varscona +2

Ras +2

Namarra +2

Adjatha The Drinker +2

Flame Tongue +3

Dragonslayer +3

Blackrazor +3

The Equalizer +4

The Answerer +4

Angurvadal +4

Angurvadal +5

 

 

Maces

 

Mauler's Arm +1

Ardulia's Fall +2

Skullcrusher +3

Mace of Disruption +3

Mace of Disruption +4

Storm Star +3

Storm Star +4

 

 

Morning Stars

 

The Sleeper +2

Wyvern's Tail +2

Kiel's Morning Star +3

Ice Star +4

 

 

Scimitars

 

Sword of Flame +1

Rashad's Talon +2

Belm +2

Water's Edge +3

Twinkle +3

Icingdeath +3

Spectral Brand +3

Spectral Brand +4

 

 

Short Swords

 

Ilbratha +1

Kundane +2

Arbane's Sword +2

Short Sword of Backstabbing +3

Cutthroat +4

Short Sword of Mask +4

Short Sword of Mask +5

 

 

Ninja-Tos

 

Usuno's Blade +4

 

 

Slings

 

Sling of Seeking +2

Arla's Dragonbane +3

Sling of Arvoreen +4

Erinne Sling +4

Erinne Sling +5

 

 

Spears

 

Halcyon +1

Spear of the Unicorn +2

Backbiter +3

Impaler +3

Spear of Withering +3

Ixil's Nail +4

Ixil's Spike +5

 

 

Staves

 

Staff of Curing +1

Staff of Command +2

Martial Staff +2

Cleric's Staff +2

Staff of Air +2

Staff of Earth +2

Staff of Fire +2

Staff of Thunder and Lightning +2

Staff of Power +2

Staff of Striking +3

Staff of Rynn +3

Staff of the Woodlands +4

Staff of the Magi +5

Serpent Shaft +3

Staff of the Ram +4

Staff of the Ram +5

 

 

Two-Handed Swords

 

Sword of Chaos +2

Spider's Bane +2

Flame of the North +2

Lilarcor +3

Berserking Sword +3

Harbinger +3

Silver Sword +5 -> +3

Soul Reaver +4

Warblade +4

Carsomyr +4

Carsomyr +5

Unholy Reaver +5

Psion's Blade +4

Gram the Sword of Grief +4

Gram the Sword of Grief +5

 

 

War Hammers

 

Hammer of Corrosion +1

Rift Hammer +2

Ashideena +2

Dwarven Thrower +3

Hammer of Thunderbolts +3

Crom Faeyr +5

Runehammer +3

Runehammer +4

[Demivrgvs]

Bold - I'm certain it needs nerfing

Italic - maybe yes, maybe not

Normal - leave it be

Wait a sec, I missed something. I thought we were only talking about lowering +1 weapons to masterwork, plain +2 to +1 and +3 to +2...but not unique weapons. Am I wrong?

 

P.S I'll try to post the work I did yesterday asap, because I've done a lot of small changes to reduce the power level of a large number of weapons (e.g. most 1-handed weapons now have a reduced % chance to trigger their unique effects).

[Shaitan]

Bold - I'm certain it needs nerfing

Italic - maybe yes, maybe not

Normal - leave it be

Wait a sec, I missed something. I thought we were only talking about lowering +1 weapons to masterwork, plain +2 to +1 and +3 to +2...but not unique weapons. Am I wrong?

I was a wee bit confused to.

 

 

P.S I'll try to post the work I did yesterday asap, because I've done a lot of small changes to reduce the power level of a large number of weapons (e.g. most 1-handed weapons now have a reduced % chance to trigger their unique effects).

Great!

[Jarno Mikkola]

Sword of Balduran +3

...

Crom Faeyr +5

I approve a lot of the list, and nearly all italics too, except the two above. I would actually add in the Short Swords of Mask too. But I would put the Silver Sword as +4.

Staff of the Ram +5, could stay(just remove some of the extra damage), as can the Ravager +5 and the Ixil's Spike +5. Why? Cause they are two handed weapons, and I am not going to allow you to give your self two +5 one handed weapons, while there is only couple of +5 two handed weapons and in mostly bad classes for the whole picture.

 

Besides, there is no 'Sword of Balduran +3', just a 'Sword of Balduran'. As there is no zero, +1 and +2 swords... as this is the only one.

 

'Why the Crom Faeyr can be a +5 weapon and no other one handed weapon?' Because it's a legendary hammer, and deserves it's place...

[Ardanis]

Wait a sec, I missed something. I thought we were only talking about lowering +1 weapons to masterwork, plain +2 to +1 and +3 to +2...but not unique weapons. Am I wrong?

I've read the first post again. You're right, it says nothing about uniques, even while I meant them too.

 

I was simply thinking about extending the concept from plain +X items to all.

1) The main reason for PFMW being superior to Mantles is the abundance of highly enchanted weapon. IR & SR significantly reduced the gap, but still it's no problem to equip the entire party with +5 (even if only after upgrading them), should one wish to.

2) There is no much point in tinkering with normal weapons if there're tons of uniques (with additional bonuses on top of the base enchantment) lying around.

3) Another less important detail is thaco outweighting almost any AC, in the end. Reducing it by 1 isn't a drastic change, but it can add it's bit too.

4) As a pure bonus, some fights gonna become harder to win due to blunt +X immunity.

 

Since I assume not everybody would agree with reasons listed, I figured it may come in 2-3 versions, one being a pure masterwork component, and another adding a number of uniques to the list.

 

That's how I see things.

[Shaitan]

Ardanis I really like your view on this matter. I hope it'll be easily doable.

 

Cheers

[Demivrgvs]

Mmm, I have to think a little about something like that, but one thing strikes me as particularly strange: how can you include +1 enchanted unique weapons in the "need to be nerfed" list?

 

Blade of Roses +1 would become a non-magical singing sword and ? Sword of Flames +1 a non-magical scimitar which inflicts fire damage?!

[Jarno Mikkola]

Blade of Roses +1 would become a non-magical singing sword and ? Sword of Flames +1 a non-magical scimitar which inflicts fire damage?!

Well, they become excellent/masterwork weapons... and in my mind that says flagged as none magical when viewed what it can hit, +0 to damage and original attack speed, still retaining the +1 to Thac0... just like the masterwork weapons in IwDII.

Also the normal masterwork weapons should be flagged as breakable, while the uniquely names not.