complete list of uber npcs, plz

[Guest forgotmyoldlogin]

good job on still working on this but some of the changes are so over the top that not documenting them is worthy of being called a bug. the only example i have so far is Karhk. i get it: he claims he's the most powerful Ogre Magi, but i think you need more than that to take him from F/M 8/8 (vanilla BG1 OM are 6/6) all the way to 12/12 which still includes his 3 attacks. i also have no idea how to justify his sick saving throws (at least +3 beyond his new level). all that for an un-scoutable encounter where the party might average level 5 is hilarious.

[DavidW]

good job on still working on this but some of the changes are so over the top that not documenting them is worthy of being called a bug. the only example i have so far is Karhk. i get it: he claims he's the most powerful Ogre Magi, but i think you need more than that to take him from F/M 8/8 (vanilla BG1 OM are 6/6) all the way to 12/12 which still includes his 3 attacks.

 

Actually, Karhk isn't a typical OM even in vanilla BG1. The vanilla version of him is already 12th level. Since other ogre magi aren't 12th level, this is clearly deliberate on the part of the designers. SCS just comes along and adjusts his spellbook to be correct for a mage of his level. His three attacks are also vanilla.

 

i also have no idea how to justify his sick saving throws (at least +3 beyond his new level).

 

His saving throws are unchanged from vanilla BG1.

 

but some of the changes are so over the top that not documenting them is worthy of being called a bug

 

I document whenever SCS changes a creature's basic statistics from their vanilla versions. This isn't happening in this case. I also document that SCS gives spellcasters a spellbook appropriate to their level.

 

all that for an un-scoutable encounter where the party might average level 5 is hilarious.

 

I'm always glad to have brought some laughter into people's lives.

[Dakk]

I'm always glad to have brought some laughter into people's lives.

You just brought some into mine. Grazie

[phordicus]

ah, you took the class "ogre mage" @ lvl 12 and made it "f/m" at the same level each. gotta do that for the spell scripts to work, of course. if kahrk had thief abilities, would those also be @ 12?

 

still, with MGI typical as the highest level spell for OMs -- putting their magic level at 7 -- advancing spell capabilities to 5 levels higher is not exactly intuitive.

 

a good fight, nonetheless.

[DavidW]

ah, you took the class "ogre mage" @ lvl 12 and made it "f/m" at the same level each. gotta do that for the spell scripts to work, of course. if kahrk had thief abilities, would those also be @ 12?

 

Theoretically, yes, but there are sufficiently few mage/thieves that I tend to handle them ad hoc.

 

still, with MGI typical as the highest level spell for OMs -- putting their magic level at 7 -- advancing spell capabilities to 5 levels higher is not exactly intuitive.

 

I'm somewhat sympathetic to this. There may be a case for overriding the normal level algorithm for Kahrk. About level 9-10 might be reasonable.

[Miloch]

I'm somewhat sympathetic to this. There may be a case for overriding the normal level algorithm for Kahrk. About level 9-10 might be reasonable.

If you want a PnP reference, the 2e Complete Book of Humanoids sets the maximum levels for ogre magi at 9 for fighters and 8 for mages (also 7 for shamans and 8 for thieves, if such exist).

 

Other notes:

Special advantages: Ogre magi develop special abilities as they gain hit dice [the numbers indicate HD]: 1) assume gaseous form once per day (as the potion), fly for 12 turns; become invisible at will, charm person once per day; 3) cast sleep once per day, regenerate one hit point per round...; 4) cause darkness in a 10-foot radius at will; 5) polymorph to a human or similar biped creature (4 to 12 feet in height), cone of cold once per day (creates a 60-foot cone, 20 feet in diameter at the far end, that inflicts 8d8 points of damage, save vs. spells for half damage).

Ogre magi are +1 on morale.

 

Special disadvantages: Ogre magi take damage as large creatures. Oriental equipment is often both rare and expensive.

Ogre magi must earn twice as many XP as a human character to advance each level (2nd level fighter at 4,000 XP, 3rd at 8,000, etc).

 

Weapon proficiencies: Daikyu, katana, naginata, scimitar, tetsubo, wakizashi, whip; oriental versions of the halberd, spear and trident.

[Hannibal_Rex]

David, you probably know this better than anyone, so correct me if I'm wrong: There seem to be recurring instances of vanilla BG1 casters having too few spells for their level; This seems less like a bug to me than a deliberate design choice.

 

Bioware might have added levels to these characters to give them more hp and better saves, while keeping their offensive power manageable for players. Nevertheless, since we're all using SCS for the challenge, upping the number of spells should remain the SOP for buffing those encounters. In a few cases, where this might lead to too strong encounters, you could leave the number a bit lower. Nobody says all mages have to be at 100% capability at the exact moment they meet the PCs.

[DavidW]

I'm somewhat sympathetic to this. There may be a case for overriding the normal level algorithm for Kahrk. About level 9-10 might be reasonable.

If you want a PnP reference, the 2e Complete Book of Humanoids sets the maximum levels for ogre magi at 9 for fighters and 8 for mages (also 7 for shamans and 8 for thieves, if such exist).

 

I tend to ignore PnP level constraints in BG2 modding - the vanilla game very wildly flouts them (L18 alhoons, anyone?)

 

 

David, you probably know this better than anyone, so correct me if I'm wrong: There seem to be recurring instances of vanilla BG1 casters having too few spells for their level; This seems less like a bug to me than a deliberate design choice.

 

Bioware might have added levels to these characters to give them more hp and better saves, while keeping their offensive power manageable for players. Nevertheless, since we're all using SCS for the challenge, upping the number of spells should remain the SOP for buffing those encounters. In a few cases, where this might lead to too strong encounters, you could leave the number a bit lower. Nobody says all mages have to be at 100% capability at the exact moment they meet the PCs.

 

I think probably you're wrong about the design choice. If you look at the creature files in BG1, you realise pretty quickly that Bioware had a very small number of spellcaster templates and built basically all their casters from those templates, tweaking levels, saves etc in a completely ad hoc way to get the challenge right. (It's also the case that vanilla BG1's spellcaster AI is almost comically bad in any case - BG2 is a big improvement.)

 

The suggestion to reduce some spellcaster power by removing spells is defensible and interesting even putting aside the original game's design, though. In general I don't do this primarily on technical grounds (I organise spells on an algorithmic basis and allowing for spellcasters with part-full spellbooks complicates the algorithm). But two other factors weigh here too: (i) a large fraction of spellcasters (to be sure, not all, but the majority, certainly including the toughest) deliberately seek out and confront <CHARNAME> and so are going to be fresh and ready when they find you; (ii) players are generally going to have full spellbooks when they enter any difficult battle, or at least will do if they reload that battle.

[Miloch]

I tend to ignore PnP level constraints in BG2 modding - the vanilla game very wildly flouts them (L18 alhoons, anyone?)

What is odd is that you actually have/had a supplement obscure enough to contradict their in-game stats (Menzoberranzan boxed set or something?) yet choose to ignore it .

 

But I think it makes sense for ogre magi. They don't need über-levels to be challenging, particularly not with special abilities like those. In fact, those might even need to be nerfed a bit, because that cone of cold could easily wipe out a 5th-level party, even if they made the saving throw. However, those abilities would make the likes of Kahrk more interesting than being YAM (Yet Another Mage). Hmm, maybe I should make that "PnP ogre magi" component I was toying with a while back. Got as far as making daikyu - custom BAMs and all - before realising their animations wouldn't support bows (just katanas and swords). The problem with putting it in another mod though, is that any scripting I'd do to support their special abilities would necessarily conflict with SCS, unless I resorted to hackery (e.g. copying the existing script to another resource, inserting extra blocks via REPLACE_TEXTUALLY or the like, then writing it back to the resource, but that'd be iffy at best).

[DavidW]

I tend to ignore PnP level constraints in BG2 modding - the vanilla game very wildly flouts them (L18 alhoons, anyone?)

What is odd is that you actually have/had a supplement obscure enough to contradict their in-game stats (Menzoberranzan boxed set or something?) yet choose to ignore it .

Ruins of Myth Drannor, actually.

But I think it makes sense for ogre magi. They don't need über-levels to be challenging, particularly not with special abilities like those. In fact, those might even need to be nerfed a bit, because that cone of cold could easily wipe out a 5th-level party, even if they made the saving throw. However, those abilities would make the likes of Kahrk more interesting than being YAM (Yet Another Mage). Hmm, maybe I should make that "PnP ogre magi" component I was toying with a while back. Got as far as making daikyu - custom BAMs and all - before realising their animations wouldn't support bows (just katanas and swords). The problem with putting it in another mod though, is that any scripting I'd do to support their special abilities would necessarily conflict with SCS, unless I resorted to hackery (e.g. copying the existing script to another resource, inserting extra blocks via REPLACE_TEXTUALLY or the like, then writing it back to the resource, but that'd be iffy at best).

 

Install the mod before SCS. Get it to give each ogre mage a combat script with a different name. SCS will (probably) then ignore the ogre magi when you install "smarter mages" - its definition of a mage is "anything with one of these scripts".

 

I actually think this is quite a cute idea (in principle anyway - the devil would be in the details) so if you do it I might be amenable to writing some AI for it, either for the mod itself or inside SCS.