Thieves

[chabba990]

Hi there, I still don't know how to use this forum-reply-quote thing perfectly, so sorry about it.

I also think that XP tables should completely be revised. In my opinion, the 4 base classes: fighter (also barbarian), thief, cleric, and mage (specialist, wild mage, probably sorcerer too), should have the same tables, which would be the fastest. This would mean that dual-, and multi-classes like mage\thief, fighter\cleric ...etc would have both of their classes advenced at level up. (which imo is more realistic and cooler) Also, in my own mod (actually im planning to make a kit revision thing also for home use.) they would have the most basic skills, abilities etc... which is not that owerpowering. Second, the ranger, paladin, bard which are classes of more devise abilities, should have a mediocre level progression. And finally, monk and druid, which in my mod are the single most powerful classes, would have the slowest leveling rate. I think this is realistic, because imo a 10th level monk, and a 10th level thief is uncomparable, just as a 6th level fighter, and a 6th level druid. They have so different abilities, special things, that offers them a wide range of tactics, unlike a vanilla fighter and thief. So this would be the best solution, but yes this needs a careful balancing between all the classes and kits.

 

But i just love druid and monk, and it is logical I think that they are more powerful than somebody else on the same level with a base class.

 

Again the dual and multi class thing. A roleplayer knows what to do, while a powergamer does everything he can in order to exploit the game. So we can't really do anything about it. Also, I would prohibit many kits from dual-classing. It is sooooo bothering that a mighty Kensai can begin casting arcane spells.... Anyway, kitting somehow means that you are specialized finally in what you have been good all along. (Like in real life, a basic doctor chooses his specialty like endocrinologist, which is another 3 years or such.... he might than choose to become a lawyer for another 6 years or so, but it is unlikely.)

[leania]

Hello, now I hit upon a some idea for Kit revisions.

 

Though I think this idea can be applied for all of classes/kits, I'll talk about thieves only as an example in this reply.

 

 

Generally, I guess almost players agree about that single class theives look just like "Traps dismantling machine". In aspect of combat skills, single class thieves are the most weakest class in BG1/BG2/TOB. That generally comes from their poor THAC0 and low APR. FIghter/Thief or Mage/Theif, and even Fighter/Mage/Theif are better than single class theives in almost any situation even though the kits have some own characteristics.

 

To improve single class thieves, we can consider adding several new abilities for them. For example, As you know, Rogue Rebalancing mod gaves Death Attack to Assassin as new abilitiy, which only can be acquired when Assassin reaches high level (but it's not HLA). I think this approach, that gives some new abilities that only can take after getting high level (16~20 lvl) to single class thieves, is very good way to make them more attaractive, because multi/dual classes never or hardly obtain those new abilities.

 

Additionally, we can think that True Thief is also the one of kits. That means we can add several new features (abilities) to True Thief such as lesser scribe scrolls/lesser alchemy/lesser read scrolles as their own abilities that only can take at high level but not as HLA. The reason I meantioned as "True Thief" is that those new abilities should not be allowed to multi class thieves. As multi class fighter has additional restriction (multi class fighter can give only 2 points of weapon proficiencies to a weapon unlike single class fighters), those new abilities must be allowed only to single class theives. Since those can be acquired after reaching high level, dual class thieves hardly obtain it becuase high level dualing is not easy.

 

And, another new abilities like Poison Weapon of Assassin, that can be used at low level, also may be added. Actually, I think the abilities as I mentioned before (lesser xxx) is more suitable for the second type of new abilities which can be acquired at low level rather than the first type's. I have a simple new ability as an example of former type's for True Thief: Hiding Attack

 

When True Thief activates this ability, the Thief automatically hide into shadow whenever his attack hits his target successfully during 3 rounds.

 

All of those new abilities will be able to make True Thief as the most tricky one compared with the other thieves, but not specialized unlike Bounty Hunter (Trap & Alchemy), Assassin (Killing an opponent), and Swashbuckler (Melee combat). As a result, True Thief can be selected as the one of thief's kits. But honestly, to make single class thieves useful, some more buffs should need like giving Two-Weapon Style Specialization as RR. In fact, imo the thieves THAC0 table should be changed as same as Clerics'.

 

Finally, as I mentioned before, this apporach can be applied for the rest of single True Classes.

[Ardanis]

When True Thief activates this ability, the Thief automatically hide into shadow whenever his attack hits his target successfully during 3 rounds.

Mmm, that would be nasty - backstab somebody, immediately go invis, backstab again, rinse, repeat.

[leania]

When True Thief activates this ability, the Thief automatically hide into shadow whenever his attack hits his target successfully during 3 rounds.

Mmm, that would be nasty - backstab somebody, immediately go invis, backstab again, rinse, repeat.

 

Yup That's what I intended. The duration may be too long, so it may need to be shorter.

[Demivrgvs]

To improve single class thieves, we can consider adding several new abilities for them. For example, As you know, Rogue Rebalancing mod gaves Death Attack to Assassin as new abilitiy, which only can be acquired when Assassin reaches high level (but it's not HLA). I think this approach, that gives some new abilities that only can take after getting high level (16~20 lvl) to single class thieves, is very good way to make them more attaractive, because multi/dual classes never or hardly obtain those new abilities.

That's exactly the approch KR has and will follow for each and every class.

 

As a general rule, a true class should be the most well rounded one, whereas each kit should give up some versatility to focus on a particular role. To achieve that though we need most true classes to be slightly better then they currently are, and kits to have adeguate hindrances (e.g. vanilla's Cavalier got really too many bonues for just losing ranged weapons, which he probably wouldn't use anyway).

 

I'm indeed open to grant true class thief a couple of mid-high lvl abilities (e.g. I suggested to let them read scrolls at 10th lvl as per PnP, but it seems the implementation is out of question) and I'll do the same for eveyr class.

 

... THAC0 table should be changed as same as Clerics'.

I was planning this too.

[Ardanis]

Assassin

While I'm generally content with RR's changes, I think the extra +2 backstab they gain at 17th and 21th levels should be split into +1 at 1st level (so an assassin starts with x3), and the second offered as HLA.

 

It may seem like straying away from

the approch KR has and will follow for each and every class.

but otherwise it is rather difficult to utilize the supposed one-hit-kill feature of the kit.

[Demivrgvs]

Assassin

While I'm generally content with RR's changes, I think the extra +2 backstab they gain at 17th and 21th levels should be split into +1 at 1st level (so an assassin starts with x3), and the second offered as HLA.

Man, either you read my mind as usual or you're pretending to not know what I wrote a couple of days ago at RR's forums. Anyway, yes, I already thought to do that. Assassins shouldn't wait till 17th lvl to be batter backstabbers than common thieves imo.

 

My only concern is how balanced it would be within BG1 against very low lvl characters, especially 1st lvl ones, and maybe 2nd lvl too. With a 3x multiplier even a normal short sword can inflict 3d6 dmg, aka 10.5 average dmg, enough to kill most L1-2 characters in one hit, without a save. That being said, we are speaking of an Assassin, he's probably expected to kill a 1st lvl unprotected target with a sneak attack, and 2nd lvl warriors start to have enough hit points to survive the attack.

[Kalindor]

I like this idea. There are several kits whose abilities need to be rearranged/updated for lower character levels... *cough*TotemicDruid*cough*...

[leania]

Here, I want to disccuss about my conceptual ideas for Thieves again.

 

As we've disccused before, True Thief should be more multi-talented than the other thieves. Assassin should be specialized for backstabbing/assassination. Bounty Hunter should have excellent skills of trap/tracking/alchemy. Finally, Swashbuckler is a fighter-like kits so he/she should be better than the other thieves in aspect of melee combat.

 

The details of my suggestion are as below. I'll just want to talk about normal features except HLA because I don't have good ideas for differentiated HLA of each kits yet.

 

1. True Thief

Can set traps (We might need to consider revising vanilla's trap ability).

Can use backstabbing (progress until 5x dmg).

Can learn basic alchemy (Only lesser potions should be made as normal ability).

Can use wands (Should we give some INT-restricted feature as RR?)

Can read scrolls (Only lesser scrolls, e.g., 1~3level arcane spells, sould be allowed as normal ability).

 

2. Bounty Huner

Advantages

Can lay special traps (We need to revise it indeed)

+20% Trap Setting and Find/Remove Traps

Can learn advanced alchemy (We can consider that it allows either just increasing the number of making potions or giving enhanced potions such as Potion of Extra Healing instead of Potion of Healing).

+1~+2 movement bonus (Bounty Hunter is generally skillful in tracking, you know).

Disadvantages

Only 15points for thieving abilities per level.

Can not read scrolls.

Can not use wands.

*We might need to add more advantages/disadvantages for Bounty Hunter.

 

3. Assassin

Advantages

Can coat weapon in poison once/day for every 4 levels (We may need to revise the poison ability).

Start with +1 backtabbing multiplier, and will obtain +1 backstabbing multiplier at higher level again.

Can obtain +5% critical hits at middle level (like KR's Kensai/Weapon Master).

+20% bonuses for Move Silently and Hide in Shadows abilites.

Can obtain +THAC0/dmg bonuses when Assassin hides in shadows (I wonder it can be implementable though).

Disadvantages

Can not set traps

Can not use wands

Can not read scrolls

Can not make any potions (Should we allow assassin making invisibility potions only?)

More limited weapon selection (Only dagger and short sword are allowed as melee weapon).

Only 15points for thieving abilities per level.

 

4. Swashbuckler

Advantages

1 Additional Bonus to AC/THAC0 every 5 levels.

Can specialize ++ in any melee weapon.

+0.5APR at middle level.

Can learn lesser evasion ability at middle level (IMO lesser evasion/evasion/improved evasion should become passive skills rather than active skills. And the lesser evasion might give some evasive abilities against specific low-level spells only).

Disadvantages

Can not read scrolls.

Only 20points for thieving abilities per level.

2x backstabbing multiplier only (No backstabbing multiplier seems too restrictive IMO).

 

Honestly, I have little idea to distinguish Swashbuckler from Fighter/Thief. That's why I suggest giving lesser evasion ability. The additional bonus to AC and the ability give Swashbuckler more "nimble" so he can be a good tanker though he has lower HP. Finally, in case of multi-class Thieves, the basic features of True Thief MUST NOT be allowed (Using wands, making potions, reading scrolls, etc.). However, I don't know it can be doable...

[Demivrgvs]

Thieves aren't my top priority because aVENGER already did a good job with RR, and I would probably prefer to focus on other warriors first (Paladins and Rangers), but I may try to find some time to write down my thoughts and open their official page. anyway, for the most part what I have in mind is very very similar to what you are suggesting, with small differences/refinements here and there.

 

Honestly, I have little idea to distinguish Swashbuckler from Fighter/Thief.

Swashbuckler cannot backstab (I'm going to keep this aspect), has less hit points and lower apr. In exchange it will be much harder to hit (aka better AC than a F/T), and he will focus on precise strikes (aka critical hits and similar abilities). Due to his faster lvl ups (single class thief vs. multiclass F/T) the Swashbuckler will actually have better hit chances and more thieving skills, and later on the two classes will have access to different HLAs further increasing the differences between them.

[leania]

Thieves aren't my top priority because aVENGER already did a good job with RR, and I would probably prefer to focus on other warriors first (Paladins and Rangers), but I may try to find some time to write down my thoughts and open their official page. anyway, for the most part what I have in mind is very very similar to what you are suggesting, with small differences/refinements here and there.

 

Ya, I know that. I just wanted to write my idea before I forget it myself, haha.

 

Anyway, I'd like to continue talking about more issues related with Thieves.

 

1. Relaxed backstabbing

I've argue that Thieves hardly deal their enemies enough because Hide in Shadows has too many restriction to perform repeatedly. Of course, they can hide again by drinking invisibility potion. However, it is a quite expensive way. And basically the thieving abilities for hiding, Hide in Shadows and Move Silently, should give better efficiency/performance according to its points.

 

So I thought how the restriction for hiding can be relaxed. There are some assumptions before talking about it:

a. Thief may be able to hide even if they are fighting against enemies when no enemies concentrate to him.

b. On the one hand, even if the enemies don't concentrate to thief, they can know the existence of theif when he try to hide within their sights. So generally thief will fail to hide on that situation.

c. On the other hand, the enemies may not be able to know whether thief hides again or not if he was behind them.

 

Condition a means that the thief should not be targetted by any enemies in order to hide again during a combat.

Condition b means that the thief should keep long distance from the enemies and have sufficient thieving abilities points.

Condition c means that the thief can hide again even if an enemy is nearby when the thief has sufficient thieivng abilities points.

 

That being said, conceptually, only experienced thief may be able to hide himself during a combat (if the abilties for hiding are low, his hiding will be detected easily due to his heavy breathing or rough footsteps). That is, higher thieving abilities for hiding give higher chances to hide during a combat unless the conditions (not concentrated by enemies and far enough from them/behind them) are not satisfied. What do you think about it?

 

2. Relaxed setting trap

Set Trap is the other way for Thief to deal damage to his enemy. It is also very restricted to perform, so I want to suggest relaxed mechanism for it like backstabbing.

 

Ardanis already made Trap Revision and I really appreciate about it. But I have a some different idea. First, Set Trap will have 'setting time' like casting time. The time will be decreased according to the Set Trap ability point. 0 point will require full of a round to set trap. 100 point will give 0 delay to set trap.

 

This is quite important thing especially for specific situation like following: Thief was runnning away from an enemy and he finally rushed into an alley before the enemy catch up with him. He has a few time to set trap. However, since he is not expericened trapper he was found before finishing setting trap. If he was better trapper he could set up the trap on time.

 

Moreover, as I mentioned about relaxed backstabbing, relaxed setting trap should be given to thief. If no enemies concentrate to experienced thief (who has over 100~250 Set Trap ability points) and he is far away enough from them/behind them, the thief will be able to set trap quickly/silently. But after the trap was activated, all of the enemies injured by the trap will focus on attacking the thief.

 

 

Those change will make racial/dex bonuses of thieving abilities more attractive. Even though Halfling should be the best race for Thieves, I noticed Half-orc Thief is always the best choice because of their outshined 19 STR (++dmg/THAC0)! Frankly speaking, higher thieving abilties are less attractive now (it means that higher dex is worse than higher str even for Thieves).

[Ardanis]

Afaict it is imposible to use the hide icon when enemies are in sight. Period.

 

Casting time for traps - it has already crossed my mind. Can - and should - be done.

[amanasleep]

Afaict it is imposible to use the hide icon when enemies are in sight. Period.

 

What if clicking the stealth button caused blindness, which would then be cured when the stealth check triggered?

[polytope]

Afaict it is imposible to use the hide icon when enemies are in sight. Period.

 

What if clicking the stealth button caused blindness, which would then be cured when the stealth check triggered?

 

It's one of those engine-level things that only Ascension64 and Taimon can tweak.

 

Although personally I find the thief's hiding ability overpowered if anything.

[Pacek]

Afaict it is imposible to use the hide icon when enemies are in sight. Period.

 

What if clicking the stealth button caused blindness, which would then be cured when the stealth check triggered?

 

Perhaps every hostile enemy in sight reduces hide by 100%? So you could load your hide skill to stupid levels just so you can hide in plain sight! Yeah I know it's engine restriction but this is why we have TobEx requests right?