Thieves

[Jarno Mikkola]

Are you kidding? You need 8mln xp to kill the last bosses?

No, but you must be ... I'll absolve you from the insult and go to the point.

I said that the game is balanced to the tables it has, the characters get better when they do and the challenges are leveled as they are, yes the game actually checks your level when it summons opponents unless you install the certain SCSII component which makes the game harder in many places.

So this includes everything. And let's remember that the origin was a role playing game, meaning that when you play it, you don't take every quest and kill every monster the game has, but pick your enemies and you might end with less than 3 000 000 xp in half way through ToB, for each character, if you really try to play only the main quest and nothing else.

Try a game that you set all the Thac0's to 20 for every character class and every level, and you'll soon find out that your "tanks" are just that, armors for you guns, as they cannot hit a thing, even if you have 56 000 000 xp with every character in the party.

 

Rebalancing the dual classing system is impossible. Example: taking a single fighter lvl allows a thief to achieve grandmastery in any weapon, all at the cost of 2000xp (let's not even discuss 2000xp can be obtained by just disabling a couple of traps cringe.gif )...how the hell can I balance that?

If you check the BG1 rules, there is no such a rules for traps, as you gain 0xp for everyone of them, even in BGII, you actually have to pick more than two with the original rules, and you'll have to be able to actually disarm the traps with another character which brings the minimum to 3 traps... and by the way, the other character needs to be a level 16 thief. See as the xp gained from the traps is the "Pick Lock" line in the XPBONUS.2da and the gained xp is relevant to the thieves level. It's not the brightest rule perhaps, but... at level 1, for the first level thief, the total gained XP from a trap is only 250 xp, divided equally to the whole of the party.

[Demivrgvs]

Are you kidding? You need 8mln xp to kill the last bosses?

No, but you must be ... I'll absolve you from the insult and go to the point.

That wasn't an insult, but sarcasm. You have the superpower of making me mad very easily, generally by dragging on discussions on the least important points, and wrong statements (see below).

 

I said that the game is balanced to the tables it has, the characters get better when they do and the challenges are leveled as they are, yes the game actually checks your level when it summons opponents unless you install the certain SCSII component which makes the game harder in many places.

So this includes everything.

This is not true. Only random spawns are scaled to player's lvl. All the most important battles and bosses don't care which lvl the main protagonist and his allies have.

 

And let's remember that the origin was a role playing game, meaning that when you play it, you don't take every quest and kill every monster the game has, but pick your enemies and you might end with less than 3 000 000 xp in half way through ToB, for each character, if you really try to play only the main quest and nothing else.

So? I said myself that I often run games like that. It doesn't change the fact that BG tends to give you a ridiculously high amount of xp compared to the accomplishments. Do you need examples?

 

Rebalancing the dual classing system is impossible. Example: taking a single fighter lvl allows a thief to achieve grandmastery in any weapon, all at the cost of 2000xp (let's not even discuss 2000xp can be obtained by just disabling a couple of traps cringe.gif )...how the hell can I balance that?

...you actually have to pick more than two with the original rules, and you'll have to be able to actually disarm the traps with another character which brings the minimum to 3 traps... and by the way, the other character needs to be a level 16 thief. See as the xp gained from the traps is the "Pick Lock" line in the XPBONUS.2da and the gained xp is relevant to the thieves level. It's not the brightest rule perhaps, but... at level 1, for the first level thief, the total gained XP from a trap is only 250 xp, divided equally to the whole of the party.

You obviously missed the whole "let's not even discuss 2000xp can be obtained by just disabling a couple of traps" despite having quoted it. So, it's "a bunch" of traps instead of "a couple" of traps. What's the point? It's undeniable that it's uber easy to get 2000xp within BG, and dual classing within BG2 is even easier.

 

If you ask me, this conversation won't lead to anything good.

[Ardanis]

I hope this matter doesn't overshadows more important and interesting discussions (see above), but I cannot resist...

But resist you must

 

To prevent further sidedragging of the topic

This is not true. Only random spawns are scaled to player's lvl. All the most important battles and bosses don't care which lvl the main protagonist and his allies have.

SUDDENLY... At least the first PP challenge is scaled to PC's level and party size. But nevertheless, such checks make no weather overall.

 

 

As far as XP amounts are concerned, there's abovementioned SimDing0's XP mod, which exactly reduces them.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Hih.

You indeed need to show me examples.

You obviously missed the whole "let's not even discuss 2000xp can be obtained by just disabling a couple of traps" despite having quoted it. So, it's "a bunch" of traps instead of "a couple" of traps. What's the point? It's undeniable that it's uber easy to get 2000xp within BG, and dual classing within BG2 is even easier.

Easy in BG1, well let's see, 2000 xp in BG1... hmm, each Kobold nets the party a whopping 7 xp, so for each 2nd level characters, it's roughly about 250 kobolds, easy pickings.

The Kobold is a monster that has 4 hit point, AC of 7 and Thac0 of 20, and is armed with both Short Sword and Short Bow, they usually come in groups that have as many members as the player...

Yes, the BG1 has mostly randomized monsters in none quest areas, a lot of randomized monsters...... why does the BG2 areas have so much more xp in them then, well partially it's because the player is rewarded for the advancement, with is because the game would become a tiring gathering of the xp that's not really much at all. The rest is due to variety etc. and design elements, that might be good or bad in situations they were not designed to, but those things are tweak-able... as the BGII today is not the vanilla one but one person vs. the computer, where the rules are the once the player decides them to be, as there is no authority in the world that can make the player not cheat if they want to. Which you come in, see you allow the player decide to go with your rules, if they are so inclined towards to. Should you make more components, it will make them able to make the decisions more easily, as they have more to choose from.

But you shouldn't include every which kind of tweaks in one all inclusive package(install component), especially once that have been done already and better.

[SixOfSpades]

As far as Thieves and the EXP gained from Traps & Locks is concerned, I would love to make the EXP a function of the difficulty of the action performed, rather than the "level" of the Thief who performed it. But as the current implementation is hardcoded and virtually impossible to change, I for one have the grace not to complain about it, and instead focus on improvements that are actually doable. Yes, BG2 is a candy store as far as EXP is concerned (why shouldn't I gain a level just for *telling* this kid I saved his mom?), but there are already other mods that handle this.

[Ardanis]

As far as Thieves and the EXP gained from Traps & Locks is concerned, I would love to make the EXP a function of the difficulty of the action performed, rather than the "level" of the Thief who performed it.

Can be done, even in automatic mode - parse all traps available and append the script with the corresponding XP gain. And since we spoke about saves vs traps, scripts are probably a subject to patch either way. Although compatibility has to be preserved.

[Jarno Mikkola]

why shouldn't I gain a level just for *telling* this kid I saved his mom?

Why indeed, after all you had to kill a dragon just to get the mom saved, or you had to be that well versed lier that they never notice when the mom doesn't ever actually return...

 

As far as Thieves and the EXP gained from Traps & Locks is concerned, I would love to make the EXP a function of the difficulty of the action performed, rather than the "level" of the Thief who performed it.

In my mind the lower level thief and thus a lower level party should actually gain more XP from any level trap than a high level thief and their party, same goes for the locks, as you over come a bigger obsicle considering your cababilities... and it needs to be equally divisible with 30 so each party member gains equal amount, and not just the leader/first party member, that usually is not the thief.... but that's a table I'll have to make for myself... and it's easier to make than what Ardanis proposes.

[Pacek]

In my mind the lower level thief and thus a lower level party should actually gain more XP from any level trap than a high level thief and their party

Hilarious! But seriously, isn't what you're describing already inherent in the way leveling up basically works exponentially?

[Jarno Mikkola]

Hilarious!

Hows that hilarious ?

 

But seriously, isn't what you're describing already inherent in the way leveling up basically works exponentially?

I will say that they are not in all the equations.

Especially in the original game, where if you had a level 1 thief, you gained 250 XP from disabling it with them, and if you had a level 16 thief you gained 1550 from the same freaking trap ! It was easier, so I learned more from it... now that's funny.

What I am trying to describe would be a system where the level 1 thief will gain more XP from disabling a trap than a professional trap remover that has done it years... that is, if the first level thief can see the trap, and here's where the detect traps etc factors come in.

[polytope]

About rebalancing the unkitted thief

 

I would vote for only true thieves and swashbucklers to be able to learn 2-weapon style - the bounty hunter and assassin anyway favor more stealthy, indirect forms of attack.

 

I'd prefer kitless thieves to get a bonus to save vs breath weapon rather than AC - reflecting their survival skills, and anyway, breath is a reflex based save, it didn't make much sense for rogues to be penalized for it.

[Pacek]

Hilarious!

Hows that hilarious ?

 

But seriously, isn't what you're describing already inherent in the way leveling up basically works exponentially?

I will say that they are not in all the equations.

Especially in the original game, where if you had a level 1 thief, you gained 250 XP from disabling it with them, and if you had a level 16 thief you gained 1550 from the same freaking trap ! It was easier, so I learned more from it... now that's funny.

What I am trying to describe would be a system where the level 1 thief will gain more XP from disabling a trap than a professional trap remover that has done it years... that is, if the first level thief can see the trap, and here's where the detect traps etc factors come in.

 

Hilarious because it made me laugh! Yes the current thieving system is flawed, but by your rationale ALL XP rewards should be be loaded in favour of low level characters. What to do with XP from kills? Quests? An easy trap should be worth the same at first level as at 40th, the difference being 250 XP means a hell of a lot more to a kid straight outta Candlekeep than a god.

[Jarno Mikkola]

but by your rationale ALL XP rewards should be be loaded in favour of low level characters. What to do with XP from kills? Quests?

I said traps and locks, and I meant traps and locks, and nothing else, see the rationalization comes from the games rules that the traps and locks pertain, the thieving skills have only so many points per level... so a level 1 thief is able to detect and disable a low level trap. If they try to detect a high level trap and fail, well... they are dead, or then at least more than capable to detect it and thus gain as much xp from a high level trap than an usual level trap... and learning to be a thief that way.

[Demivrgvs]

@Ardanis, I'll resist.

 

XP

As far as Thieves and the EXP gained from Traps & Locks is concerned, I would love to make the EXP a function of the difficulty of the action performed, rather than the "level" of the Thief who performed it.

Can be done, even in automatic mode - parse all traps available and append the script with the corresponding XP gain. And since we spoke about saves vs traps, scripts are probably a subject to patch either way. Although compatibility has to be preserved.

I obviously agree with Six on this. Anyway, I kinda prefer to avoid a "late install patching component which may have compatibility issues" if possible, but that's probably something you (Ardanis) would have to deal with, not me, thus feel free to step in.

 

why shouldn't I gain a level just for *telling* this kid I saved his mom?

Why indeed, after all you had to kill a dragon just to get the mom saved, or you had to be that well versed lier that they never notice when the mom doesn't ever actually return...

On one hand I have no hard feelings on you getting some xp for telling the boy you saved his mom, as long as the amount of xp is so low that it doesn't matter, otoh it's kinda ridiculous, and no DM would waste his time on it during a PnP session. If you killed a dragon to save his mom then you already got xp from killing the beast, and xp for completing the quest, you don't need a separate xp gain for something so small as speaking to someone. If the boy happens to wander there not knowing his mom is safe you can tell him to go inside because you're roleplaying a good character (and you make Minsc happy - a small interjections can be considered your "reward"), or you can ignore him because you're roleplaying an evil character.

 

Long story short, more often than not my concern is the amount of xp gained, not how often you get it.

 

 

True Thieves

I would vote for only true thieves and swashbucklers to be able to learn 2-weapon style - the bounty hunter and assassin anyway favor more stealthy, indirect forms of attack.

I imagine assassins dual wielding daggers as a classic, despite it not providing any advantage to a character who's supposed to kill without a "fair fight", but your suggestion is indeed interesting.

 

I'd prefer kitless thieves to get a bonus to save vs breath weapon rather than AC - reflecting their survival skills, and anyway, breath is a reflex based save, it didn't make much sense for rogues to be penalized for it.

I obviously agree. I thought about changing save tables to remedy to this absurd thing of thieves being low on reflex based saves. Granting a bonus to saves vs breath to unkitted rogues only would be strange though, at least imo. Are swashbucklers less agile than thieves? Surely not. Are Assassins and Bounty Hunters less agile? It may be questionable, but surely not an established fact.

[Pacek]

If they try to detect a high level trap and fail, well... they are dead

 

And if a low level fighter takes on a dragon, what happens??

[Jarno Mikkola]

And if a low level fighter takes on a dragon, what happens??

Well, there's two possibilities, either he dies, or he takes the dragon down with his bow shot that hit the dragons eye... while the 150 other fighters died around him, and he gains all the loot, XP etc.