Kit Revisions (Paladins)

[kreso]

Nice. Does its current implementation allows the Cavalier to draw the attention on himself rather than a nearby ally?

No. It makes enemies berserk, and attack whoever is close®, including the disabled target. It would need an extra effect, to make it work as intended - you suggested it youself a while ago (an aura which makes friendlies "untouchable". Maybe you could make it trigger as an on-hit effect without animation which "covers" friendlies in the vicinity.....think Namarra "wall of silence"). I haven't yet tested "Shield Other" (level 5 and all )

Otoh, it prevents enemies closing in on a character.

Can't say how it works against casters yet, they usually save.

[yarpen]

Personally, I dislike the whole idea of Undead Hunter being unable to use Plate Mails.

All Paladin's armors are plate armors.

On the other hand limiting him to proficiency in piercing/slashing/missle weapons would be appropriate. He'd become kind of militiant-cleric.

[kreso]

Can't say how it works against casters yet, they usually save.

It's as suspected - they go berserk for a round, after that they resume casting as if nothing ever happened.

[kreso]

Personally, I dislike the whole idea of Undead Hunter being unable to use Plate Mails.

All Paladin's armors are plate armors.

On the other hand limiting him to proficiency in piercing/slashing/missle weapons would be appropriate. He'd become kind of militiant-cleric.

I agree about plate mails. If he's gonna keep the "ranged specialist" feature I'd rather limit him to 1* in melee and add the ability to put 3* in ranged weapons (or just crossbows, since it fits the theme), than have him in Chain/Splint when there are quite a few Paladin-specific plates around.

Anyhow, Cavalier is quite imbalanced now , and puts both UH and True Paladin to shame.

[Demivrgvs]

Cavalier

Cavalier is quite imbalanced now , and puts both UH and True Paladin to shame.

Well, there's a reason I said I needed this class to be tested more than others.

In theory it always gives up something in exchange for what it gets...

- Challenge deals less damage than Smite Evil but gains a semi-disabling effect

- gains free spec in S&S style, but cannot use missile weapons

- can achieve Mastery with few selected weapons, but doesn't gain Turn Undead nor Lay on Hands

- for each custom spell he gets he loses another spell (e.g. Shield of Faith instead of Sanctuary)

...but in the process he might get the better deals, and become too good at what he does.

 

Speaking of spellbooks, the Cavalier currently loses Sanctuary, Know Opponent, Strength of One and Divine Power (DP itself will be replaced by Holy Sword for True Paldins though). If you have better suggestions go ahead.

 

Knight's Challenge

Nice. Does its current implementation allows the Cavalier to draw the attention on himself rather than a nearby ally?

No. It makes enemies berserk, and attack whoever is close®, including the disabled target. It would need an extra effect, to make it work as intended - you suggested it yourself a while ago (an aura which makes friendlies "untouchable". Maybe you could make it trigger as an on-hit effect without animation which "covers" friendlies in the vicinity.....think Namarra "wall of silence"). I haven't yet tested "Shield Other" (level 5 and all )

Shield Other works exactly like that, making allies within 5 feet from the Cavalier "untargetable".

 

Otoh, it prevents enemies closing in on a character.

That's the intended use yes, reinforced by 10th level upgrade which makes the target unable to move. We just have to tweak it to perform well imo.

 

Can't say how it works against casters yet, they usually save.

Save vs. spell ensures that warriors are most likely to fail while spellcasters can resist much more easily. Anyway, as we already discussed we can easily make the latters unaffected by the challenge if necessary.

 

Undead Hunter

Personally, I dislike the whole idea of Undead Hunter being unable to use Plate Mails.

All Paladin's armors are plate armors.

On the other hand limiting him to proficiency in piercing/slashing/missle weapons would be appropriate. He'd become kind of militiant-cleric.

I agree about plate mails. If he's gonna keep the "ranged specialist" feature I'd rather limit him to 1* in melee and add the ability to put 3* in ranged weapons (or just crossbows, since it fits the theme), than have him in Chain/Splint when there are quite a few Paladin-specific plates around.

I'll think about it a little bit more than...I do need something to balance the kit advantages though because with heavy armors it clearly outshines the True Paladin imo.

[yarpen]

He always did. If you were using him with melee weapons anyway, there was no disadvantage for him.

As overall, Paladins were OP stuff. Dat +2 bonus to Saving Throws.

[yarpen]

That's why I tend to consider Kits as customized classes than "Lots of Funky Stuff Incoming". So, when we are talking about Undead Hunter.

 

- you can restrict his Smite Evil to Smite Undead

- Immunity to Fear becomes Immunity to Paralyze and/or Disease.

- Aura of Protection works only on/against Undeads

Suddenly his skillset becomes far more focused so you can put more power into it.

 

Well, I'd still vote for limiting his usage of slashing/piercing weapons. Skeletons gain nice resistance against those types of damage. And that would actually create at least ONE warrior who would crush some faces with Flails, Hammers and Maces.

[kreso]

Cavalier

 

In theory it always gives up something in exchange for what it gets...

Yea, but what he looses isn't really what he needs.

 

- Challenge deals less damage than Smite Evil but gains a semi-disabling effect

This. That's why I think True Fighter outshines any fighter kit - he has a disable, others don't.

 

 

...but in the process he might get the better deals, and become too good at what he does.

Softly speaking .

 

If you have better suggestions go ahead.

Not really. The spells are great and I do like them, but they indeed put him "on top" when it comes to fighting. Considered taking away Mastery from him? Not only can he defend better than any other kit in BG1, but his melee advantages are almost on par with what a BG1 fighter gets - up to level 6, my Cavalier had 35% of kills, while a Berserker (hand-made to mow down everything in a single hit, 19 strenght Half-Orc) had 23%.

 

Knight's Challenge

 

Shield Other works exactly like that, making allies within 5 feet from the Cavalier "untargetable".

The solution to make Challenge work is casting "Shield other" spell via eff on hit, albeit a version with a much shorter lasting (2 or 3 seconds, but this may be hardware-specific since AI needs to "kick in" to choose a target for berserk).

Anyways, you might want to do some tweaks about other things included as well:

What I noticed is that on hit effects aren't made for use with "heavy weapons". I played Cavalier (Bastard sword) and Berserker (2 handed sword), both in Full Plate/Plate (IR Armor encumberance).

They both suffered the same problem - Cavalier's "Challenge Evil" sometimes expired before he even attempted to hit his target, while the poor 2-handed Berserker will never Frenzy vs a mage since he will never hit him due to slowness (mages have cast spell - move behaviour in SCS, they don't stop moving except to cast a spell). This is very prominent in BG1, in BG2 you'll have higher apr and Haste so it's not that relevant. However, in BG1 both were a pain to play, especially Berserker.

So, my suggestion would be to make "Challenge Evil" have a duration of 9 seconds instead of 6. It will make little difference when fighting mages (I don't like to put points into daggers/short sword so I can succesfully preform the manouver) and it will mean a lot when fighting fighters in BG1.

 

Save vs. spell ensures that warriors are most likely to fail while spellcasters can resist much more easily. Anyway, as we already discussed we can easily make the latters unaffected by the challenge if necessary.

I'd make it unusable on mages, extend duration to 12 seconds and remove the save part. Yea, crazy. But I hate save or nothing happens stuff. It's not like it comes "for free" - the affected target can easilly smash the Cavalier if he isn't prepared, and it won't affect non-evil targets (btw, the aligments in BG1 are nuts).

 

 

Undead Hunter

I'll think about it a little bit more than...I do need something to balance the kit advantages though because with heavy armors it clearly outshines the True Paladin imo.

Take it from a role-playing perspective. Say you play UH. Your stronghold will send you on a task to slay the mighty Red Dragon (on my install he has 920 HP ). After you kill him, you get scales for a suit of armor which UH can't use? Now that's a bummer...

 

As overall, Paladins were OP stuff.

The problem isn't really a "kit" problem but more of a "game" problem - in PnP, you can't just say "I'll be a Paladin" - go and roll one, but before you get to choose what class you'll be, not after. His PnP disadvantages aren't really implemented in BG (apart from loosing class, but even that is a crappy implementation - in PnP you wouldn't get away from many things which you can in BG).

[kreso]

Shield Other works exactly like that, making allies within 5 feet from the Cavalier "untargetable".

The solution to make Challenge work is casting "Shield other" spell via eff on hit, albeit a version with a much shorter lasting (2 or 3 seconds, but this may be hardware-specific since AI needs to "kick in" to choose a target for berserk).

I made this happen, and it does work. An on-hit effect implemented in Challenge Evil (a tweaked Shield Other spell with a much shorter duration) protects everyone within a small radius, and berserked target forcefully attacks the cavalier. 2 seconds of "protection from IDS" is enough to recognize the Cavalier as an appropriate target. The problem is that the effect is applied on each hit, but I guess I could make freindly creatures affected immune to it for the next round.

 

Imoen under attack, Cav to the rescue . If we agree on this, he doesn't need the level 2 Shield other - and I'd be happy if he'd loose it - it is very abusive. Having non-targetable mages around a Cavalier makes a mess on par with Staff of Magi, even worse.

[yarpen]

The problem isn't really a "kit" problem but more of a "game" problem - in PnP, you can't just say "I'll be a Paladin" - go and roll one, but before you get to choose what class you'll be, not after. His PnP disadvantages aren't really implemented in BG (apart from loosing class, but even that is a crappy implementation - in PnP you wouldn't get away from many things which you can in BG).

That's why I proposed nerfs to Paladins. Mostly, taking out their superior (compared to Fighters) early game.

The best example would be their +2 bonus to all saves.

Same goes for any immunities they can get during early stages of the game.

 

- Once per Turn can use Detect Evil.

- At level 1 can once per day use Lay on Hands. At level 11 this ability's power increases significantly.

- At level 3 can Turn Undead.

- At level 5 gains access to divine spellcasting.

- At level 7 gains Protection from Evil feat. At level 15 this ability's power increases significantly.

 

I actually incorporated their +2 saves from start into ability that seems relatively in place later (Protection from Evil, which later becomes permanent Circle of Protection from Evil -- as long as it's implemented without protection from Demons/Charms).

[Darkersun]

Thanks for the nice wellcome. I really like this mod. Just to let you know, I use BG1EE and Blackguards can't use pate armor with this mod .

[Demivrgvs]

Paladin's power level

When we tested the True Paladin I was under the impression that while paladins are indeed powerful and easier to use than most fighter classes they weren't really OP, did I got it wrong?

 

In terms of pure martial combat KR has greatly improved fighters while other warriors have actually been nerfed because of the loss of half an attack per round. Let's just consider the True Paladin vs. True Fighter. Assuming that paladin's Turn Undead is kinda situational we have:

- Smite Evil vs Offensive/Defensive Stance

- Lay on Hands vs Weapon Mastery

- Divine Spellcasting vs Called Shots

An in-depth comparison would require a huge wall of text, but personally I'd say there's not a real power level difference here. Paladins can tank better imo and counter more things, but while fighters are more vulnerable to non-martial threats, they are hugely more powerful when it comes to offensive potential imo, with a higher apr, bigger and constant dmg output, disabling on hit effects, etc. Paladins are more self-sufficient because of their spellcasting (coupled with better saves that's what made me say paladins are "easier to use"), but within a party you just need to put a cleric and/or a mage near a fighter to cover his weaknesses and see the latter's effectiveness raise exponentially.

 

Overall, the only things that may put paladins on the top (especially within BG1) are:

a) hardcoded +2 to all saves at level 1

b) all fighters except the Kensai currently don't get anything at level 2, when paladins gains immunity to fear

Sooner or later I'll handle b), while a) may be easily handled imposing a -1 to all saves at level 1 (*) which can then be re-gained later either by default (level 10?) or within their new Aura of Protection.

 

(*) My only small complain about it is that the -1 penalty may look strange in the "character screen" as I fear it appears as a -1 penalty over his base saves rather than a +1 bonus instead of +2.

 

Cavalier

Ok, after kreso testings I'd say that adding a Shield Other-like effect to Knight's Challenge is a must. I would not remove Shield Other from Cavalier's spellbook though, but just tweak it into something more like IR's Falling Star shield (e.g. allies adjacent to the Cavalier gain some protection).

 

@kreso, now that you have manually merged Shield Other and Challenge could you try out removing (just set % to 0) the berserker effect from the latter and see how it performs?

 

Undead Hunter

- you can restrict his Smite Evil to Smite Undead

- Immunity to Fear becomes Immunity to Paralyze and/or Disease.

- Aura of Protection works only on/against Undeads

Suddenly his skillset becomes far more focused so you can put more power into it.

I like specialized kits, but I'm against overspecialized kits. If we make kits "overspecialized" you end up with characters which can trivialize certain encounters while performing really bad for larger parts of the game.

 

I'm striving to give UH all the tools to perform greatly against undead (he gets Halt Undead, Undead Bane and Disruptive Weapon within his spellbook, and his custom Smite Evil is devastating against such creatures), but I also want the kit to perform well in other situations.

 

Well, I'd still vote for limiting his usage of slashing/piercing weapons. Skeletons gain nice resistance against those types of damage. And that would actually create at least ONE warrior who would crush some faces with Flails, Hammers and Maces.

My concern here is that such restriction would make it even more similar to a Morninglord of Lathander (within KR un-kitted clerics will be able to use most weapons, while the Morninglord retain the current limitation to blunt weapons).

 

Just to let you know, I use BG1EE and Blackguards can't use pate armor with this mod .

Wtf? o.O My only guess is that Blackguards share the "usability flags" with some other class which gets that restriction. Regardless, it seems like I have to find another solution for UH rather than limiting his armor proficiency.

[kreso]

Overall, the only things that may put paladins on the top (especially within BG1) are:

a) hardcoded +2 to all saves at level 1

b) all fighters except the Kensai currently don't get anything at level 2, when paladins gains immunity to fear

Sooner or later I'll handle b), while a) may be easily handled imposing a -1 to all saves at level 1 (*) which can then be re-gained later either by default (level 10?) or within their new Aura of Protection.

I'm against a -1 penalty to saves, for a simple reason - nothing prevents you from making a "shortie" dwarf or halfling with a +5(!)

bonus to most relevant saves from level 1.

Second, +2 to saves is good, but far from imbalanced in BG1 where your saves are awful by default, and HP pool doesn't really allow for mistakes - it's not something you can count on as a viable protection. It helps, true, but it's nothing gamebreaking. Paladins still fail saves, especially vs spells, like all fighters do.

 

 

Cavalier

Shield Other.... just tweak it into something more like IR's Falling Star shield (e.g. allies adjacent to the Cavalier gain some protection).

Fine by me. Just don't overdo it for this kit - it's very powerful with his spelbook back. Probably not as much without SR, but even taking into account just new spells he's a monster.

 

@kreso, now that you have manually merged Shield Other and Challenge could you try out removing (just set % to 0) the berserker effect from the latter and see how it performs?

I tought about it as well yesterday, and actually found a reason why it would be bad, but forgot what the reason was today . Yes, I'll try it out and let you know tonight.

Should work I guess.

Just a suggestion for nerfing Cavalier down a bit - how about removing magic damage from Challenge Evil?

 

My only guess is that Blackguards share the "usability flags" with some other class which gets that restriction. Regardless, it seems like I have to find another solution for UH rather than limiting his armor proficiency.

He also gets Divine Spellcasting

[kreso]

@kreso, now that you have manually merged Shield Other and Challenge could you try out removing (just set % to 0) the berserker effect from the latter and see how it performs?

I tought about it as well yesterday, and actually found a reason why it would be bad, but forgot what the reason was today . Yes, I'll try it out and let you know tonight.

Should work I guess.

It works as intended, even without enemies going berserk . And I remembered why I tought this would be a bad idea - anyone within the radius gets protection, not just the PC Cavalier is "protecting". If you're ok with it, then fine. I kind of dislike that it's an on-hit effect.

If you're not fine with it, an easy (?? I hope ) way to make it work (or better yet, to serve it's purpose) is to give Cavalier an innate ability "Shield other" (it does seem more like an "ability" rather than a spell anyway), and make it affect a single friendly target at touch range (similar to how Lay on Hands work, which Cavalier looses so you may consider this a "substitute" for it) which gives the affected PC a short period of "undetectability", rather then a spell affecting an AoE.

[Kalindor]

If you implement it like kreso's suggestion, I would be in favor of removing the on-hit activation as it also seems odd to me with that implementation. I would opt for one of the following:

1) As per kreso: make it a "shield companion" touch-range ability that renders the target untargetable by foes for 1-2 rounds but roots both him and the cavalier to the spot.

2) An aura-like ability that renders adjacent companions untargetable by foes. The aura dissipates after a specific duration.

 

You could even have the ability begin as variant 1 and advance to variant 2 at a higher character level.

 

*Edit: There is one scenario that seems like a possible exploit for this implementation, but I am not sure how this would work in-game:

a - walk a character out in front of the party to be targeted by a high-level mage/lich's spell.

b - Mage starts casting, target ally with "shield companion" ability.

c - Mage can no longer target that character and the spell fizzles.

 

Maybe 'c' does not take effect and the mage can finish casting at an untargetable character. However, this may not be the case and could open up a potential exploit.