Kit Revisions (Paladins)

[Kalindor]

Thinking of it, summons are indeed a better way to deal with him.

 

They help a lot, but they definitely won't get the job done alone without considerable backup.

[Lawlight]

Have not tested Inquisitor yet. Here is my feedback on both True Paladin and Cavalier:

True Paladin

Spellbook

Well, SR's spells are amazing. So nothing has changed here except the early access, which feels really really good.

Demi, your spellbook overhaul was a great success. It's nice that the "evil" and unfitting stuff is gone now, though somehow I miss miscast magic.

Furthermore the casting level adjustment feels just great (and right).

At this point I want to say that Divine Power and Righteous Fury should probably switch places imo, because the former is quite pointless (hp boost only) for a Paladin, while the latter could be somewhat appealing.

Btw it still bothers me that Wisdom is completely irrelevant for Paladins.

Smite Evil

Very powerful but not overpowered so far, but I play my Paladins with a big two handed sword or sword and board style. I'm not willing to play a dual wielding paladin (not even for testing purposes ), so I'm unable to say if this playstyle changes the powerlevel of this ability.

Overall

True Paladin makes for a nice tank overall. As for now he's superior to the cavalier in this matter once both have 2** in sword and board style.

It's refreshing that Detect Evil is finally useful. Very unique feel imo.

For my fortune to be complete only Divine Bond is missing.

Cavalier

Surprisingly, very underwhelming - at least for now the Cavalier stands in the shadow of it's base class. He somewhat lacks a defining role.

For example I'd continue to take inspiration from PnP Knight class and give the Cavalier a bonus to AC while wielding a shield (so we can test if ToBEx really fixed the opcode or not). If it works, the Cavalier will truly become unique imo, and it would open the way for tons of new ideas like Shield Wall, Shield Other, etc. We'll see.

Great ideas to make this kit unique.

[Demivrgvs]

Thanks guys for all that feedback, I'll make good use of it for the next update which will finally include the Undead Hunter, and a re-revised Cavalier.

 

Few notes:

Spellbook

At this point I want to say that Divine Power and Righteous Fury should probably switch places imo, because the former is quite pointless (hp boost only) for a Paladin, while the latter could be somewhat appealing.

You have a point, but I may have a better idea: removing Divine Power (keeping it for the cleric) and add Holy Sword or its Forgotten Realms variant, Weapon of the Deity. We might need to tweak such spell a little compared to PnP to make it viable for BG, but it could also help to make Paladin's spellbook feel slightly more unique.

 

Smite Evil

Very powerful but not overpowered so far, but I play my Paladins with a big two handed sword or sword and board style. I'm not willing to play a dual wielding paladin (not even for testing purposes ), so I'm unable to say if this playstyle changes the powerlevel of this ability.

I hate dual wielding paladins as much as you do, and we're already considering the possibility of limiting Smite Evil to a single strike as per 3E.

 

For my fortune to be complete only Divine Bond is missing.

I do considered to implement that, but overall I'm not really sure. May I ask what do you like of it in particular and why?

[Kalindor]

Unique Paladin spell additions would indeed be cool. Is the amount of work required worth it? We still have Rangers, Bards, Mages, Sorcerers, Clerics, and BG:EE kits.

[Demivrgvs]

Unique Paladin spell additions would indeed be cool. Is the amount of work required worth it? We still have Rangers, Bards, Mages, Sorcerers, Clerics, and BG:EE kits.

LOL, and you forgot Thieves! Anyway, I was just thinking loud, there are indeed other priorities.

[Kalindor]

Oh yes, thieves too. Not my preferred class.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Oh yes, thieves too. Not my preferred class.

And why would this be... maybe they are not good enough, ever think that ?

[Lawlight]

For my fortune to be complete only Divine Bond is missing.

I do considered to implement that, but overall I'm not really sure. May I ask what do you like of it in particular and why?

 

Yeah. I like the idea of Paladins beeing able to imbue their weapon with additional combat effects.

[kreso]

Paladin - this is imo, the best tank in game (BG1+BG2). For both mages and oponnents alike, he's a very dependable guy. Gets up to 40% resistance, same as Barbarian, + can equip the best in game shields and armour, in addition to +2 to all saves. As an extra boon, he can heal, cure Disease (with aTweaks, diseases can kill without possibility of ressurection), is immune to fear, and has a steroid ability to boot.

Being a paladin, he gets to use some of the best equpiment in game such as Shield of the Order and Purifier, which seems to be a perfect setup for him. The real deal here are the spells, however: in between 1st-4th level clerics gain some outstanding spells with SR (even Free Action is only level 4) and with smart use of those spell slots a paladin can extend his own (and the whole party's) survability by large extent. Aura is just more icing on the cake, bringing his saves well into negative values, adding more to whole "you can't disable nor kill me" thing.

[Demivrgvs]

Undead Hunter

Just a tought, for UH's immunity to Fear/Paralyze I'd swap them as Kalindor suggests. Fear at 5, Paralyze at 2. Remove Fear is level 2, quite easilly obtainable, Paralyze is much more difficult to handle early. Not to forget, being under Fear makes characters run. Being held makes them dead.

I'm sympathetic to this, but doesn't it sound strange to gains immunity to fear so "late"? It might be just me, but a panicked paladin running away in fear makes no sense. I'd consider more acceptable for an UH to still face his sworn enemy and succumb to multiple paralyzing attacks (he still has outstanding saves vs. death with the +2 bonus on top of warrior's best save, and at level 5 he becomes fully immune), rather than running away in fear. No? Mmm...

 

I made an exception for the Inquisitor because in theory he generally fights humanoids who infiltrate their order/church ranks or the city infrastructures (he is a sort of "detective"), rather than "frightening monsters" (though I guess disguised demons or devils fit too).

 

Cavalier

Unless A64 gets his hands back on opcode 183, I and Arda tried it in every possible way, and it does not work as it should (timing mode or stacking issues depending on settings). Without it I cannot give this class PnP Shield Block (+x AC when wielding a shield), and I don't know if I like the idea of giving it a plain +x AC.

Well, all of us testing him agreed that Heroism isn't all that good. How about granting AC instead of THAC0? You can always use Bless for THAC0 boost early and AC is always nice. I wouldn't give Cavalier extra AC just "because he's Cavalier". It would be great if that opcode worked as it should, but I wouldn't mind AC bonus tied to Heroism.

Yeah...I do hope A64 will make it work sooner or later.

 

I do have quite a few ideas for this class (mostly inspired by PnP Knight, such as Fighting Challenge and Shield Ally, but I'm still considering various implications, and I really cannot decide about Divine Spellcasting. Neither AD&D Cavalier nor 3E Knight are "spellcasters", and even 3E Cavalier PrC isn't strictly a spellcaster unless the character also have many Paladin's levels. The only reason I'm tempted to keep spells is because vanilla Cavalier had it, and because without an exe patch I cannot fully remove it (how do you feel about my current workaround about it?).

[kreso]

Undead Hunter

I'm sympathetic to this, but doesn't it sound strange to gains immunity to fear so "late"? It might be just me, but a panicked paladin running away in fear makes no sense. I'd consider more acceptable for an UH to still face his sworn enemy and succumb to multiple paralyzing attacks (he still has outstanding saves vs. death with the +2 bonus on top of warrior's best save, and at level 5 he becomes fully immune), rather than running away in fear. No? Mmm...

Well, in-game first Fear thrown at you happens at Friendly Arm Inn. First Ghast and Ghouls are one map below Beregost. SCS makes the mage at FA inn slightly more dangerous (he randomly chooses spells), while Ghasts/Ghouls are deadly, considering they both attack fast and saving throws aren't that good early on even for paladins. I would find Paralysis immunity more useful that early (Nashkel mines Mulahey uses Hold Person, there's Bassilus, Carrion Crawlers etc.)

In addition, it would mean that at least 1 kit has this immunity early. I generally find Fear much more common in BG2 - aTweaks Mummies, Dragons, huge damage delivered, Demons etc.

 

Cavalier

I do have quite a few ideas for this class (mostly inspired by PnP Knight, such as Fighting Challenge and Shield Ally, but I'm still considering various implications

You can implement such feats in BG2? !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

and I really cannot decide about Divine Spellcasting. Neither AD&D Cavalier nor 3E Knight are "spellcasters", and even 3E Cavalier PrC isn't strictly a spellcaster unless the character also have many Paladin's levels. The only reason I'm tempted to keep spells is because vanilla Cavalier had it, and because without an exe patch I cannot fully remove it (how do you feel about my current workaround about it?).

Well, if you improve his features, you might consider removing *** in weapon (it makes little difference after 13th level, Haste rounds attacks up so having 2apr or 5/2 apr will equal to 3 apr when hasted) and giving them spellbook. You might even "customize" it a bit.

Otoh, your workaround is fine, if Kalindor didn't see it I would have never noticed it. Feels "hacky", but I don't care much for such things.

Also, tbh, I'd like to keep exe patching to minimum.

[Demivrgvs]

Undead Hunter

Considering 99% of this kit is not set in stone I can only say "we'll see". Regarding paralyzing attacks, I'm not sure if the current kit description hints enough at that, but the "unconventional" (for a paladin) ranged combat style isn't there just for show, and if played well the UH should not find himself surrounded by ghouls and under a barrage of paralyzing attacks (or level draining ones later on). Furthermore, I secretly hoped for you, kalindor or lawlight to discover a nice synergy between Ranged Smite Evil and Turn Undead. I don't find TU appealing with a true Paladin or vanilla's Cavalier because I hate to chase a turned undead with a heavy armored melee-focused guy, but if the UH works as a ranged character it might be a different story.

 

Cavalier

I do have quite a few ideas for this class (mostly inspired by PnP Knight, such as Fighting Challenge and Shield Ally, but I'm still considering various implications

You can implement such feats in BG2? !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, I obviously cannot replicate them exactly, but something similar might be done. I do said "something inspired by". If I could implement everything I see in PnP my life would be too easy!

 

Well, if you improve his features, you might consider removing *** in weapon (it makes little difference after 13th level, Haste rounds attacks up so having 2apr or 5/2 apr will equal to 3 apr when hasted) and giving them spellbook. You might even "customize" it a bit.

Well, *** with "knight weapons" is pretty much the only thing implementable about AD&D Cavalier, I would drop it only if I really see no alternatives.

 

A customized spellbook could work yes, I was in fact thinking to try him out with spells and making Heroism one of them.

 

Otoh, your workaround is fine, if Kalindor didn't see it I would have never noticed it. Feels "hacky", but I don't care much for such things.

Unfortunately I'm a "perfectionist", and I hate even small flaws.

 

Also, tbh, I'd like to keep exe patching to minimum.

Me too.

[kreso]

Undead Hunter

Considering 99% of this kit is not set in stone I can only say "we'll see". Regarding paralyzing attacks, I'm not sure if the current kit description hints enough at that, but the "unconventional" (for a paladin) ranged combat style isn't there just for show, and if played well the UH should not find himself surrounded by ghouls and under a barrage of paralyzing attacks (or level draining ones later on). Furthermore, I secretly hoped for you, kalindor or lawlight to discover a nice synergy between Ranged Smite Evil and Turn Undead. I don't find TU appealing with a true Paladin or vanilla's Cavalier because I hate to chase a turned undead with a heavy armored melee-focused guy, but if the UH works as a ranged character it might be a different story.

I can only speak for myself, but I never use that Turn Undead button unless I'm sure they'll be blasted....I simply like to whack them. Synergy concept is nice, however. Will definitely try him out.

 

Cavalier

Well, I obviously cannot replicate them exactly, but something similar might be done. I do said "something inspired by". If I could implement everything I see in PnP my life would be too easy!

Can't wait to see this. I tought about this a bit yesterday, but I can't imagine how this would actually look like in BG2 engine limitations. These abilities sound very nice on paper.

 

Well, *** with "knight weapons" is pretty much the only thing implementable about AD&D Cavalier, I would drop it only if I really see no alternatives.

A customized spellbook could work yes, I was in fact thinking to try him out with spells and making Heroism one of them.

My line of tought was - there are other ways to make Cavalier "most martially skilled Paladin" other than weapon mastery. Also, since Paladins are to be "defensive" class in general I was thinking more of a party themed skillset.

Those 2 feats from PnP indeed seem very fitting for the class concept.

 

P.S.

Why are we discussing Paladins in this thread anyway?

 

Edited by Demi: Moved to a more appropriate topic.

[Ardanis]

My line of tought was - there are other ways to make Cavalier "most martially skilled Paladin" other than weapon mastery. Also, since Paladins are to be "defensive" class in general I was thinking more of a party themed skillset.

Join my campaign to convince Demi to accept my Shield Bash idea, he says the only thing he doesn't like is that we don't have an appropriate animation

[kreso]

My line of tought was - there are other ways to make Cavalier "most martially skilled Paladin" other than weapon mastery. Also, since Paladins are to be "defensive" class in general I was thinking more of a party themed skillset.

Join my campaign to convince Demi to accept my Shield Bash idea, he says the only thing he doesn't like is that we don't have an appropriate animation

T-up.

 

Anyways, a suggestion for UH:

Given his "job", he has to be good vs Undead, yes? Now, Undead generally move slow, so he can use his crossbow skills freely. However, there are skeletons which are quite resistant to missile damage. Now he has a ranged ability to smack them as well. Cool.

Now, for it to have effect hit must be made.

Now consider the most powerful Undead - Liches. Will he be good vs them? With his skillset, immunities and spells may be nice, but he should kill them, right?

He won't be that good and will suffer from same issues as vanilla UH - how will you hit a lich in the first place.

Suggestion - a x/day usable ability, ranged force attack (a la Monk's Ki Arrow), bypasses PFMW (not spell protections, but does ignore Globe of Invulnerability and still needs target to be visible). It would at least give him means to disrupt spellcasting. Needless to say, this should be made to work only vs Undead.