Kit Revisions (Paladins)

[Ardanis]

Permanent immunities would be overkill indeed. I thought more about a mix of immunity, curing and party protection - e.g. the aura grants 50% resistance to Level Drain (aka 50% per round chance of immunity), LoH cures Disease, and paladin himself is immune to Hold.

[Demivrgvs]

Undead Hunter

If we focus on solid protections vs those creatures rather than to-hit bonuses against them, I think that's perfectly good.

I am not sure about this...Undead - Disease, Hold, Level Drain, Domination

Demons & Devils - Fear, Poison

Just how many immunities should a single kit get? Other Paladins are given 2. But I can't see which of the above would be more useful if this class is to tackle both Undead and Demons. I'd vote for Level Drain and Fear, but that's what Blackguards get in EE.

Permanent immunities would be overkill indeed. I thought more about a mix of immunity, curing and party protection - e.g. the aura grants 50% resistance to Level Drain (aka 50% per round chance of immunity), LoH cures Disease, and paladin himself is immune to Hold.

I was about to say something like Arda just said.

 

If I had to "vote" for two immunities I'd pick fear and paralysis, because they are quite common, used by a wide variety of creatures (undead, demons, etc.) and fully disabling (aka who cares if the UH can cure paralysis if he himself is paralyzed?). Otoh I think non-disabling things can be handled in other ways indeed. I'm really torn when it comes to permanent immunity to level drain. On one hand I guess it's a "must have" (a legacy of both vanilla BG and 3E undead hunter), otoh it's not a big deal imo if the kit is mostly a warrior (lost levels are much worse for spellcasters) and UH's LoH can cure it. The UH would still be very vulnerable to vampire's domination but I guess we can't have everything (vanilla's Cavalier had 3 immunities and two resistances, but I always considered that extremely overkill).

[kreso]

Don't forget that Hold and Fear are used by mages as well, especially in BG1 - every priest is sure to cast Hold, and about 3/4 mages use Horror in SCS modded game. I like where this kit is going. I wouldn't give them the ability to Cure disease since even in PnP (which surprises me) they don't have it. Curing Level Drain - nice.

[Demivrgvs]

Undead Hunter

Don't forget that Hold and Fear are used by mages as well, especially in BG1 - every priest is sure to cast Hold, and about 3/4 mages use Horror in SCS modded game. I like where this kit is going. I wouldn't give them the ability to Cure disease since even in PnP (which surprises me) they don't have it. Curing Level Drain - nice.

Right now it would be immune to fear and paralysis, and his Lay on Hand would cure paralysis and level drain.

 

Mind you, within AD&D this kit gets the immunity to paralysis and the ability to cure it, replacing True Paladin's immunity to disease and ability to cure it, and for some reason neither within AD&D nor within Pathfinder the respective anti-undead paladins are immune to level drain. 3E Hunter of the Dead does though.

 

Speaking of BG1 spellcasters using Hold spells...what should be the extent of UH's "immunity to paralysis" and his ability to cure it? I've always considered hold, paralysis and stun three slightly different conditions (a mind effect, a physical/poison effect and a sonic?/undefined effect respectively), but the priest spell Remove Paralysis cures them all (and slow too within 3E, but that makes no sense imo). If UH's immunity is supposed to cover all forms of paralysis then it's a much more powerful feature than it might seem considering it can even protect from a Death Knight's PW:Stun spell.

 

Edit: And what about Web? I consider it an improved entangle (as it should be) but BG makes it work as pretty much a paralysis effect.

 

Edit 2: for the sake of information, vanilla's UH is immune to all forms of paralysis, including web, but not stun.

[kreso]

Undead Hunter

Speaking of BG1 spellcasters using Hold spells...what should be the extent of UH's "immunity to paralysis" and his ability to cure it? I've always considered hold, paralysis and stun three slightly different conditions (a mind effect, a physical/poison effect and a sonic?/undefined effect respectively), but the priest spell Remove Paralysis cures them all (and slow too within 3E, but that makes no sense imo). If UH's immunity is supposed to cover all forms of paralysis then it's a much more powerful feature than it might seem considering it can even protect from a Death Knight's PW:Stun spell.

 

Edit: And what about Web? I consider it an improved entangle (as it should be) but BG makes it work as pretty much a paralysis effect.

 

I'd say it should cover Hold Person and Touch attacks, not Stun. If priest's Remove Paralysis removes them all, then I'm not so sure. It does seem a bit OP as an immunity, almost a permanent Free Action. No to immunity to Web and Entangle. They make you unable to move, but I fail to see why UH would be immune to them. Demons don't use it, and neither do Undead. Consider such immunities in BG1 setting. He will lay waste to Clerics (very little apart from Unholy Blight they can do vs UH, and I think they don't even use it in an unmodded game), Undead, and with Web immunity to Spiders and, to an extent, Mages too. This would only make them vulnerable to Slow for impeding their movement. You could even use him as a perfect bait (with 0 equipment), 15 feet in front of everyone in party and start tossing Webs all over him. It's 2 much.

[Demivrgvs]

Undead Hunter

...what should be the extent of UH's "immunity to paralysis" and his ability to cure it?

I'd say it should cover Hold Person and Touch attacks, not Stun. If priest's Remove Paralysis removes them all, then I'm not so sure. It does seem a bit OP as an immunity, almost a permanent Free Action. No to immunity to Web and Entangle. They make you unable to move, but I fail to see why UH would be immune to them. Demons don't use it, and neither do Undead. Consider such immunities in BG1 setting. He will lay waste to Clerics (very little apart from Unholy Blight they can do vs UH, and I think they don't even use it in an unmodded game), Undead, and with Web immunity to Spiders and, to an extent, Mages too. This would only make them vulnerable to Slow for impeding their movement. You could even use him as a perfect bait (with 0 equipment), 15 feet in front of everyone in party and start tossing Webs all over him. It's 2 much.

I do agree with you that UH's immunity should not cover Web (it shouldn't even be a real paralysis), but unfortunately it shares the same opcode (109) used by the paralyzing touch of vanilla's ghouls. I swear I actually never knew vanilla's UH was immune to Web before working on this kit...there's always a new absurd thing to learn with this game.

[kreso]

LOL.

[lynx]

Unrelated. Isn't the default turn undead level difference between paladins and clerics 3? The description mentions 2 — did you find a way to offset it somehow?

[Demivrgvs]

Unrelated. Isn't the default turn undead level difference between paladins and clerics 3? The description mentions 2 — did you find a way to offset it somehow?

I assumed they are considered like 1st level clerics when the button becomes usable at 3rd level - was it a wrong assumption?

[lynx]

All the net lore says 3. In gemrb we have the values unhardcoded, and apparently at 4 with only an unused effect being able to modify it ingame.

[Mike1072]

I wouldn't rename him to a Divine Hunter though, because that change makes it sound like he hunts divine things.

Wouldn't that be a Hunter of the Divine?

Well, the original name wasn't Hunter of the Undead. Undead Hunter itself is technically ambiguous, but Divine Hunter reverses the meaning.

 

The bigger problem is that combat bonuses vs. these creatures would have a big overlap with the Cavalier's bonuses to combat in general. Right now you have the kits sacrificing magic to achieve their goals. Maybe one of them could focus a little more on magic, maybe become a defensive-oriented buffer?

I had in mind things like Disrupt Undead, Banish and/or Exorcism rather than plain ranger-like bonuses.

Hmm, maybe my idea would be a better fit for a new kit instead.

[Demivrgvs]

All the net lore says 3. In gemrb we have the values unhardcoded, and apparently at 4 with only an unused effect being able to modify it ingame.

At 4? So when it first gets Turn Undead the paladin actually has 0 "caster level"? o.O

 

I wouldn't rename him to a Divine Hunter though, because that change makes it sound like he hunts divine things.

Wouldn't that be a Hunter of the Divine?

Well, the original name wasn't Hunter of the Undead. Undead Hunter itself is technically ambiguous, but Divine Hunter reverses the meaning.

Wow, now that you mention it UH's name really is a lot ambiguos! For some reason I never noticed it but googling UH's name I indeed have WoW's UH class which actually is a sort of undead ranger, aka an undead who hunt, rather than a hunter of undead. Don't know what to say...

[lynx]

at a *difference* of 4, not levels (the value could easily be wrong). It's a different stat than casting level, but there's little chance to affect it.

[Kalindor]

I think the kit needs immunity to level drain. Yes, level drain is more annoying for mages. However, fighting multiple vampires or big strong vampires / shadow dragons requires immunity to level drain to avoid being killed or incapacitated by loss of levels a lot of the time.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I think the kit needs immunity to level drain. Yes, level drain is more annoying for mages. However, fighting multiple vampires or big strong vampires / shadow dragons requires immunity to level drain to avoid being killed or incapacitated by loss of levels a lot of the time.

Or you can also cast a protection spell that makes you temporarily immune to level drain... no permanency needed.

 

but I agree the Divine Hunter sounds a little weird. Holy Hunter, maybe?

"Ouh man, where did all those holes come from ?" "... spears, the graduation ritual involves 37 spears lunged through your vital organs... the priests keep you alive during that, but it hurt like you can't believe, and then you go hunt with those spear shafts as your stakes."