Kit Revisions (Paladins)

[Demivrgvs]

Smite Evil

Is there a reason why it doesn't work like in 3e, i.e. thaco bonus = CHA mod (+4 in our case) and damage = level, while lasting only until it strikes once?

Well, 3E had this ability last 1 attack, Pathfinder made it last until the target was slayed. I opted for 1 round because 3E seemed quite underwhelming: maxed out at level 20 it's pretty much just a Magic Missile (which deal 17.5 dmg on average) which requires a hit roll and only affects evil targets - isn't it kinda meh?

 

If it proves itself too powerful later on, especially combined with things like Improved Haste and Whirlwind Attack (which btw they probably won't have anymore as soon as I give paladins their own unique HLA table), instead of limiting it to the first successful strike (which does seem like a huge nerf and also needs another custom sec type for flawless implementation) we could more simply reduce the damage per hit (assuming Smite Evil's effectiveness already increases by itself because of increased apr at levels 7 and 13), can't we?

 

We can safely set the thaco bonus to +4, since BG2 paladins start with CHA=17+ anyway. This bonus is probably much more useful for BG1 games, where you have troubles hitting people, and by the time it becomes irrelevant you already have solid damage addition.

I kinda agree with this, I just thought +2 was a good compromise. Within BG1 I felt the thac0 bonus is needed to avoid completely wasting your limited 2-3 uses per day of this ability.

 

Furthermore, I would keep this SE for all kits, and instead provide them with additional bonuses vs their racial class enemies. E.g. UH can daze/stun undead with increasing save penalty, and Inquisitor... well, do something not overlapping with WS

I was going to say the same, actually I thought I already did some time ago when I was suggesting to merge Smite Undead and Smite Heretic into UH and Inquisitor's Smite Evil. Anyway, yes, I do prefer this kind of solution over an uber specialized version of Smite Evil.

 

 

Undead Hunter

If we're determined to rename the kit, I would suggest something less ambiguous than Divine Hunter. E.g. Holy Hunter.

I've excluded the possibility of changing a class name as It really goes against Revisions "rules" imo - though making it Hunter of the Undead could acutally be considered a proofreading fix. I'm only still considering the possibility of expanding the class concept on the "hunter" part, aka making it skilled with ranged combat.

[kreso]

Inquisitor feedback, BG2

First thing that strikes out is that their Dispel is targeted ability - it cannot be used on ground, nor on imp.invisible enemies. Makes them a bit underwhelming against oponnents under SI:Divination, and are far more dependant upon ally mage's antimagic attacks. Not a bad thing, just requires some getting use to. Power level seems fine. +5, as per PnP. It's no longer auto-dispel on everything, but rather an "usual" ability in range with what other kits get - nothing OP or groundbraking. Projectile used seems a bit weird, but after several uses I started liking it.

It takes into account aligment, so it doesn't always work as intended, or more correctly, as I tought it would (blame Fixpack). It also won't dispel anyone non-evil, even if the "evil guy" casted magic on him.

Somehow it seemes like Inquisitor is now much more of a "casting" class, instead of a warrior. Don't know why, just a feeling I got while playing with him. Every round of battle he needed to use Dispel on an oponnent/ use LoH etc. He did very little fighting. At least, makes the several uses of his abilities per day important, unlike before.

He is quite playable (I need to try him in BG1, he strikes me as the perfect 2-handed wielder, and his Dispel can take down Minor Globe), simply feels more like a casting class above his other features.

His "Lay on hands" is nice indeed, given that Chaos/confusion is so predominant in BG2. Didn't find that level 9 upgrade of it ("remove curse") useful, however.

Perhaps something else would be more fitting here....like removing Doom/Malison from target.

Banishing upgrade at level 10....in battle, this seems like a waste of x/day ability. Didn't like it. I know its per PnP, yes. I haven't tried it yet on "gated" creatures, but it usually works on other summons like Elementals, I don't know what saves they have but judging from experience quite bad. Also, Inquisitor usually has more important thing to be doing, and not worrying about summons which are slain by Death Spell regardless of their saves.

True Sight - always, always useful. Partially because it's simply an awesome spell, partially cause of casting time. Not much to say about that, it's TS.

Overall, given his +2 vs spell (ty Demi ), his Lay on hands and gameplay style it somehow "enforces" on you (can't find a more fitting word) he's a very defensive kit, with exellent utility. Kinda like Cleric or something... Not a fighter like other Paladins, but rather someone staying behind the lines, keeping fighters in shape, setting up kills for them.

Feels very, very unique. Haven't played something such as this before.

Might sound pretentious, but it fits Keldorn even more than before. Sort of "Guardian Angel" , and these 2 words describe quite correctly my feelings for the kit and the gameplay behind it (or the idea I got from playing it).

[Kalindor]

Interesting. I hope to have Paladin feedback to you within a couple days.

 

In theory, the banishing ability sounds rather useful to me. Often times my only arcane caster is a Sorcerer and I do not always have Death Spell to deal with summons, so it could be helpful to me. I haven't tried it yet, however.

[Demivrgvs]

Inquisitor

First thing that strikes out is that their Dispel is targeted ability - it cannot be used on ground, nor on imp.invisible enemies. Makes them a bit underwhelming against oponnents under SI:Divination...

That's because TS still works as per vanilla, but within the next beta I was thinking to make it behave more like PnP (as planned for SR v4). It will not dispel illusions on sight, but you will be able to distinguish them, and target Improved Invisible creatures with you Dispel Evil.

 

Power level seems fine. +5, as per PnP. It's no longer auto-dispel on everything, but rather an "usual" ability in range with what other kits get - nothing OP or groundbraking. Projectile used seems a bit weird, but after several uses I started liking it.

Good.

As always, if anyone has better ideas for projectile animations just let me now.

 

His "Lay on hands" is nice indeed, given that Chaos/confusion is so predominant in BG2. Didn't find that level 9 upgrade of it ("remove curse") useful, however.

Perhaps something else would be more fitting here....like removing Doom/Malison from target.

Ideally it's pretty much a "lesser" Break Enchantment. As soon as SRv4 allows me to do that, I'll make it cure charm effects.

 

I'm not sure about making it cures all enchantments. Wouldn't it be too much?

 

Banishing upgrade at level 10....in battle, this seems like a waste of x/day ability. Didn't like it. I know its per PnP, yes. I haven't tried it yet on "gated" creatures, but it usually works on other summons like Elementals, I don't know what saves they have but judging from experience quite bad. Also, Inquisitor usually has more important thing to be doing, and not worrying about summons which are slain by Death Spell regardless of their saves.

Considering it's a single target ability, I'm quite in favor of improving it (e.g. adding a save penalty). I fear SCS still codes fiends in a way which makes it impossible for me to detect them correctly as "gated" (to make them AI friendly regardless of ProEvil SCS removes the "summoned demon" flag, instead of making ProEvil not grant "immunity to summoned demons" as SR does), thus the ability might not work at all on them.

 

Overall, given his +2 vs spell (ty Demi ), his Lay on hands and gameplay style it somehow "enforces" on you (can't find a more fitting word) he's a very defensive kit, with exellent utility. Kinda like Cleric or something... Not a fighter like other Paladins, but rather someone staying behind the lines, keeping fighters in shape, setting up kills for them.

Feels very, very unique. Haven't played something such as this before.

Might sound pretentious, but it fits Keldorn even more than before. Sort of "Guardian Angel" , and these 2 words describe quite correctly my feelings for the kit and the gameplay behind it (or the idea I got from playing it).

Wow, sounds good.

[kreso]

I'm trying Inquisitor in BG1 now. Have also a Wizard Slayer and a Barbarian in party. So far, it has been almost a no-reload (only Greywolf gave me trouble, since I have no disables until I dual Imoen to a mage, and have a druid instead of a cleric). This group managed to defeat a random spawn with Ogre Mage at level 3-4, without casualties, which was incredible.

Now, how does this relate to Paladins? Well, I noticed, at least in SCS, Banish ability of Inquisitors might actually come in real handy. There are 2 mages (entrance to Cloakwood Mine) in particular (may be random when SCS installs, but that's what I got ) who use very powerful summons - Ogre Berserkers who, in addition, go Berserk and Spiders. Would love to Banish those. Any chance (or justification, other than this) of giving them that ability somewhat sooner?

[kreso]

A suggestion for True Sight - in SCS install options, it's possible to make this spell protect/remove Blindness from whoever casts it. Viable tweak/improvement?

[Demivrgvs]

Well, I noticed, at least in SCS, Banish ability of Inquisitors might actually come in real handy. There are 2 mages (entrance to Cloakwood Mine) in particular (may be random when SCS installs, but that's what I got ) who use very powerful summons - Ogre Berserkers who, in addition, go Berserk and Spiders. Would love to Banish those. Any chance (or justification, other than this) of giving them that ability somewhat sooner?

Mmm...I don't know, considering the respective PnP spell, Dismissal, is a level 4 or 5 spell (for clerics and mages respectively) I would not put such ability before at least level 7 or 8.

 

A suggestion for True Sight - in SCS install options, it's possible to make this spell protect/remove Blindness from whoever casts it. Viable tweak/improvement?

Ohh, now I remember this. When David introduced it I expressed my doubts because it had the potential to make blindness completely pointless against most SCS spellcasters (is there a cleric or mage not using TS?), but it makes sense, and it also kinda compensate the other nerfs (though they were necessary imo, this spell within BG was insanely more powerful than PnP). Furthermore, it's common praxis to make Revisions mod work alongside SCS as if they were one, thus fine with me adding this tweak for SCS sake.

[kreso]

....it had the potential to make blindness completely pointless against most SCS spellcasters...

.....

[Kalindor]

It is pretty ballsy to try to blind a wizard anyway, I usually find myself trying to take down their spell protections in order to Disintegrate them or the like rather than blind them. TS removing blindness would be a very nice addition for the Inquisitor, though.

[kreso]

I've finished a playthrough of BG1 with 2 Paladins, Cavalier and Inquisitor.

To my surprise, even with Cavalier's higher starting strenght and 3*** in weapons, he was not that far ahead of Inquisitor in terms of kills. Was kinda dissaponiting, tbh. Somehow expected him to amount for at least 60% or more party kills, and was around 45%, Inquisitor 40%.

Inq, on the other hand, was a decisive figure in many of SCS battles. His exellent saves help keeping him operational, and, in turn, he kept my Cavalier fighting after succumbing to Sleep and Confusion.

Not to forget that Inquisitor's Dispel is the only means of removing Stoneskin from mages in BG1, making previously long and exhausting battles much easier.

Immunity to Charm is exellent, since it such a common disable.

Lay on hands improvements are great, providing for both kit distinction and healing. I hardly ever needed my Cleric to heal, so he was acting like a back-up bombardier with damage spells.

Final battle vs Sarevok turned into 1vs2 duel (my Cavalier vs Sarevok and Angelo), everybody else died and it was an epic struggle, especially after Stoneskin potions were expended.

I contiued the game in BG2, now have killed Firkraag (Mazzy - Short Bow - Called Shot/Disarm is pure win) at level 12.

I can say I so got used to Inquisitors now I find it hard to play without one!

[Galsic]

I've always enjoyed the Inquisitor kit, and KR's version seems to offer even more. I can't wait 'til you guys get these ironed out and ready to go .

[Demivrgvs]

I've finished a playthrough of BG1 with 2 Paladins, Cavalier and Inquisitor.

To my surprise, even with Cavalier's higher starting strenght and 3*** in weapons, he was not that far ahead of Inquisitor in terms of kills. Was kinda dissaponiting, tbh.

Well, the Cavalier should perform as a tank and protector imo, not as a "striker". As soon as I get back to KR (I need to focus on IR for a couple of days) I hope to have enough feedback on paladins (true class too) to get into "phase 2" for them. For example I'd continue to take inspiration from PnP Knight class and give the Cavalier a bonus to AC while wielding a shield (so we can test if ToBEx really fixed the opcode or not). If it works, the Cavalier will truly become unique imo, and it would open the way for tons of new ideas like Shield Wall, Shield Other, etc. We'll see.

 

I can say I so got used to Inquisitors now I find it hard to play without one!

Sounds like the heavy nerf to his vanilla Dispel Magic didn't hurt him so bad at all. Good.

 

Overall, what do you feel about the three available paladin classes? Is one of them clearly superior or inferior?

 

Final battle vs Sarevok turned into 1vs2 duel (my Cavalier vs Sarevok and Angelo), everybody else died and it was an epic struggle, especially after Stoneskin potions were expended.

Glad to see the Cavalier stand against all odds! Very roleplaying for him to be the last to fall.

 

I contiued the game in BG2, now have killed Firkraag (Mazzy - Short Bow - Called Shot/Disarm is pure win) at level 12.

SCS Dragons can be killed by a level 12 party? I expected more from them!

[kreso]

Well, the Cavalier should perform as a tank and protector imo, not as a "striker". As soon as I get back to KR (I need to focus on IR for a couple of days) I hope to have enough feedback on paladins (true class too) to get into "phase 2" for them. For example I'd continue to take inspiration from PnP Knight class and give the Cavalier a bonus to AC while wielding a shield (so we can test if ToBEx really fixed the opcode or not). If it works, the Cavalier will truly become unique imo, and it would open the way for tons of new ideas like Shield Wall, Shield Other, etc. We'll see.

This sounds great.

 

 

!Sounds like the heavy nerf to his vanilla Dispel Magic didn't hurt him so bad at all. Good.

No, it didn't. You just have to be careful about who to dispel and when, + use Lay on Hands and TS. Yup, Inquisitor is a very busy class in SCS.

 

Overall, what do you feel about the three available paladin classes? Is one of them clearly superior or inferior?

Hard question. Imo, Inquisitor still > all. Not by such a large difference as in vanilla, and that difference fades in BG2 (your mages and clerics can do what he does in BG1). For BG1, he has no competition, at least for SCS. Being able to remove stoneskins is his unique ability for such low levels. It doesn't always work, and he's quite limited as to how often he can use his Dispel. Also, his Dispel/Lay on hands can be interrupted.

He isn't OP, just very useful for an AI enhacing mod. I believe he won't seem so good in vanilla BG1.

True Paladin - he's an awesome tank with SR/IR. Can do plenty on his own. Much better with SR, however.

Cavalier - Imo, the weakest of Paladins so far, even if I'm sure plenty of people will disagree (even I tought of him as OP when first I played him). Heroism is nice, but not enough to make this class as good as the other two imo. He fights better than other Paladins, but if I wanted a fighter I'd choose one True Fighter over Cavalier tbh. Somehow lacks a true defining, powerful ability. Immunity to Charm was most useful.

 

Glad to see the Cavalier stand against all odds! Very roleplaying for him to be the last to fall.

True. I was thinking "reload, there's no way I can kill Angelo, Angelo's skeleton and Sarevok" but an AC of -12, Full-plate and Cloak of Displacement AC bonuses vs melee proved quite a match, even for Sarevok.

Very satisfying victory.

 

SCS Dragons can be killed by a level 12 party? I expected more from them!

Well, took 5 or so reloads (more than 160 fire damage on a failed save vs breath , chunk galore ), heavy use of potions but it's doable, even with his double HP. Just give him something to do other than bashing you into oblivion with 4 hits . Thinking of it, this is the kind of battle that True Paladin excells at.

[Kalindor]

I've been playing around with the paladin classes a bit. As you may have noticed, my playtesting time has dwindled recently. However, I have the following early impressions:

1) True Paladin's early access to spellcasting relative to vanilla makes a large difference in how this class plays. It is a godsend, so to speak. In the early levels (1-4), I think the Paladin stacks up quite favorably to the Fighters. Smite Evil has the same early-game struggles as Ki Strike in that 1 to 1.5 attacks per round do not let it shine, but that is to be expected. I do not see this as a problem. The THAC0 bonus when Smiting is nice as well.

2) Inquisitor is extremely useful, as kreso has described. This holds true against non-SCS mages as well, especially in SoA. The cumulative +4 to save vs. spells is quite noticeable. Dispel Evil is no longer automatic, which is as you intended I'm sure. I think you should note the range of this ability in the class description. It's effectiveness is on par with the power of the Wizard Slayer's Breaching Strike. It may even be more useful against SCS liches who cast PFMW, etc. as Breaching Strike requires hits to activate.I have not tested it in this scenario, however. Perhaps kreso could comment on the effectiveness of Dispel Evil vs. Disruptive Strike for removing combat protections against high-level SCS mages. I think the Wizard Slayer should be superior in this regard. Also, if you are worried about the banishment of summons not working correctly on gated demons, you could make it banish both summoned creatures and all demons with a save. Would this be too useful?

3) Surprisingly, the Cavalier does not seem to be overly powerful like I was fearing it would be. To start with, I was surprised that the Cavalier's Smite Evil is not as good as the True Paladin's at higher levels. Why is this so? You would think the Cavalier would be the smiter extraordinaire. The extra proficiency point is the reason to use this kit, and it is useful. Not as useful as I predicted, however. If you were to trade the spellcasting ability and smite-blinding of the True Paladin for the Cavalier's extra proficiency point, I'd take the spells and blindness. As it stands, the Cavalier could use some extra oomph. I would do one of the following:

-Make the bonuses from Heroism increase more.

-Grant them bonus when using shields as you alluded to.

-Give them High Mastery in their weapons of choice. This might make them too good compared to Fighters in BG1.

-Give them a full-powered Smite Evil.

 

*Edit: I can also confirm that the shadow dragon and Firkraag are beatable with a level 12 party in SCS. It's not easy, however. Armies of summons are helpful...

[kreso]

.... (I need to focus on IR for a couple of days)

Ummm.....does this mean damage resistance will be implemented to armors?

 

The THAC0 bonus when Smiting is nice as well.

Yes, it's great. Agreed.

 

The cumulative +4 to save vs. spells is quite noticeable.

Beats Hold immunity any day, at least for me.

 

Dispel Evil is no longer automatic

It also works only if target is Evil in aligment. Unfortunately, Fixpack imo messes quite a bit of these up. Don't know how EE handles these.

Detect Evil helps with this. Shouldn't it bypass MR?

 

I think the Wizard Slayer should be superior in this regard.

He is, his Breaching Strike goes through SI:Abjuration which makes Inquisitor cry. Otoh, Apsolute immunity, Imp.Mantle usually make WS cry.

 

you could make it banish both summoned creatures and all demons with a save. Would this be too useful?

I don't know...I usually dislike "save or nothing happens" abilities.

 

Cavalier

-Make the bonuses from Heroism increase more.

Agreed. It's saving grace is that it can't be dispelled, but otherwise quite underwhelming. Furthermore, it doesn't stack with Bless, which lasts much longer.

-Grant them bonus when using shields as you alluded to.

All for that.

-Give them High Mastery in their weapons of choice. This might make them too good compared to Fighters in BG1.

You said it. 3*** is enough imo.

-Give them a full-powered Smite Evil.

I'm quite certain that they can Blind on hit, just like True Paladin. Again, I think this only works on Evil.

 

*Edit: I can also confirm that the shadow dragon and Firkraag are beatable with a level 12 party in SCS. It's not easy, however. Armies of summons are helpful...

Or Mazzy . No, I only used Kitthix the Spider and he was blasted the second he was summoned. Ilbratha sword, Stoneskin Potions and Dragonscale Shield were the key to success. Know oponnent din't hurt either.

Thinking of it, summons are indeed a better way to deal with him.