Kit Revisions (Paladins)

[kreso]

Undead Hunter

I do like the Assassin but he is a good example of a kit which is borderline OP against humanoids (give him a bunch of Potions of Invisibility, a Cloak of Non-detection and he can murder a team of fighters without taking a scratch) and almost useless in too many situations (against golems, undead, demons, etc. he can do very little to contribute).

Point taken.

 

That's why personally I'd vote for him getting a Smite Evil ability which also deals more damage vs. undead rather than him getting only Smite Undead, but if there's a large consensus about him getting the latter I might be persuaded.

Imo both of these are valid options. I shall not persuade you further.

Also, this may easilly be a crazy idea, but -

given UH's immunities (especially Paralyisis from Ghoul Touch,) why not give the Inquisitor kit a "Ranged Smite" instead of UH? He's only immune to Charm (always used at range) and has a save vs spells bonus (also useful at range). In addition, Inquisitor already cannot cast spells and, given my test playthrough, isn't exactly the best-suited for front-line (he has far more important things to do than hitting stuff in harder battles). Paladin spells are made for melee combat (think AoF, DUDM). Just an idea, consider it at least. Yes, I know, it would make Inquisitor overlap with WS even more (I personally wouldn't mind, and I don't think they overlap that much in the first place).

 

I do said "Right now the ability checks first for 'evil' and only later for 'undead', but I should be able to tweak the ability a little bit to make the checks separately" which means that if the first condition is null (aka target is not evil) the second check (is the target an undead?) doesn't even happen. I was saying I can separate those checks completely, so that non-evil undead can be affected, even though non-evil undead should not exist in the first place imo except for extremely rare RP cases.

Aaaa......should read more carefully then. K.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I don't think Smite Evil checks for both "evil" and "Undead". Neutral Undead don't take any damage from this ability.

I do said "Right now the ability checks first for 'evil' and only later for 'undead', but I should be able to tweak the ability a little bit to make the checks separately" which means that if the first condition is null (aka target is not evil) the second check (is the target an undead?) doesn't even happen. I was saying I can separate those checks completely, so that non-evil undead can be affected, even though non-evil undead should not exist in the first place imo except for extremely rare RP cases.

Erhm, why not use the paladins own spell book to give him the ability to Smite either Evil or Undead, he doesn't need to do both at the same time ! Yes, there's also good undead and Undead Hunter should be able to give those the boot too if they work for chaotic forces...

And no, the smite evil shouldn't actually get better if the target is undead. Nor should the Smite Undead get better if the target is evil. As in "if(x4)", not "either(x2) and(x2)".

[kreso]

Some more toughts about Paladins

True Paladin, with the addition of UH, now (imo) stands a bit overshadowed by him. Immunity to Hold is, at least in BG1, far more useful than Disease, given that there is (I think, may be wrong) one single type of monster capable of diseasing you in BG1 (a spider of sorts, which appears 2 or 3 times, and that Disease is easilly healed by resting), and Hold type abilities and spells are both very often and deadly.

+ UH gets Ranged Smite.

[Galsic]

 

As for Cavalier, that "Challenge" feat could very well be implemented via Berserk opcode on both him and target. Not only would this increase his value drastically, he'd be the only kit which can "force" others into attacking him, making him a defender extraordinaire and a truly unique figure.

 

 

 

 

Don't like. Berserk is a loss of control, no? As I understand, a cavalier in challenge mode is actually in a state of heightened concentration. Are there even parameters in the Berserk opcode that'll, at the very least, keep the challenging cavalier (or his/her target, for that matter) from attacking other targets within range?

[kreso]

Up until one of them dies, they will never change target.

[Demivrgvs]

Cavalier

As for Cavalier, that "Challenge" feat could very well be implemented via Berserk opcode on both him and target. Not only would this increase his value drastically, he'd be the only kit which can "force" others into attacking him, making him a defender extraordinaire and a truly unique figure.

I do thought about it, but as Galsic I'm not 100% convinced. Even assuming the ability has no range (aka the Cavalier can only challenge to death someone near him) the target might not automatically switch to attack the Cavalier, and spellcasting targets would stop casting spells to mindlessly attack the Cavalier in melee (which is not the intended behaviour). Now, we could make it work only against warriors but overall I'm not sure BG's berserking opcode would make this ability work as we wish. Otoh we could make it an additional effect on Cavalier's Smite Evil, thus forcing a creature struck by it to save vs. spell or go berserk (maybe using the opcode discussed below to also force it to attack only the Cavalier).

 

On a side note, I was trying to figure out a way to use another opcode, Protection from Creature type (100), to achieve similar goals. I still haven't a clear idea, but something like a targeted touch ability (or a 5' feet aura?) which temporarily makes an ally within touch range fully "not targetable", thus making the nearby Cavalier the obvious new target. Do you guys can imagine ways to exploit this beyond its intended "bodyguard" role? I think it would be a very cool and unique ability, but I don't want to introduce something which could be abused.

[kreso]

I somehow envisioned "Challenge" to be a "fair" 1vs1 duel (so that both Cavalier and his enemy - also should be a warrior class, using this against mages could be gamebreaking - are protected from both allies and enemies - no healing spells, potions, spells etc.)

Now, I don't know if that could be done in such a way, and it may be a little "immersion-breaking" (what is the explenation of them being invurnerable to harm from others?).

As for "non-targetable"....I'm really not sure. Placing a mage near him will never get the mage breached, mage could avoid getting targeted by PW spells and similar stuff. And could die to AoE.

It also introduces an issue where you could simply run away with Cavalier and demolish the enemy which is supposed to be "challenged to a fair duel" with arrows and spells.

This is easy to control in true PnP, but not in a computer game.

From my experimentation with Berserk, creature under berserk opcde will always attack the nearest enemy first, regardless of where he is, or if an ally is standing next to him. He may (or may not) turn to his allies after the first enemy is dead/invisible and he is still under Berserk effect.

You'll never see a KR Berserker attacking an ally first, only after his targeted enemy died/hides or similar he may attack friendlies.

aTweaks has something similar to Berserk for Mephit's Taunt, using the "attack nearest" opcode:

 

Once per day, a Salt Mephit may attempt to taunt a single humanoid creature. The target must save vs. spell or become berserk for one round, rushing forth to attack the mephit in melee. If the victim cannot reach the mephit during a single round, it attacks the nearest creature instead.

[Demivrgvs]

I'm taking a small break from IR because unless Arda and Mike ask me to do something the main component is fine (specific items might get very small changes but nothing that takes much time once decided and, unlike KR, IR's main component doesn't require much testing). I'd like to have some fun with KR again. Let's see where we left...

 

True Paladin

We were discussing about making Smite Evil a "single hit" ablity (same as Fighter's Called Shot), but other than that the class seemed fine, didn't it?

 

One small change I have in mind was to replace Divine Power (pointless for the Paladin) with either Holy Sword or Weapon of the Deity.

 

 

Cavalier

Here I have literally tons of ideas, but deciding what should to be done is a real pain, both in terms of what pick (e.g. which abilities are a must? which ones are better left alone?) and how to implement it (unfortunately certain things cannot be done, and others might be done different from PnP to fit the current system without drastically alter it). Instead of trying to everything at once I'd first try to implement the base of the general concept, and then eventually expand or change the implementation if needed.

 

As previously discussed the general idea is to heavily merge the current AD&D Cavalier with PHBII Knight class. Keeping the current Cavalier in mind, I'd start with implementing three changes:

1) replace Smite Evil with something as close as possible to PnP Knight's Challenge

2) remove Lay on Hands

3) re-enable spellcasting

 

Challenge Evil

"Replacing" Smite Evil with something similar but at the same time different is crucial to give the class a paladin-like but unique/distinct gameplay (right now the two classes are almost identical till levels 3-4), much like I think Dispel Evil does for the Inquisitor. Implementing it is difficult, and there are quite a few different ways to try doing it. As a start I'd suggest making it a sort of a "smite evil" which deals small or no additional damage, but forces the target to save vs. spell or be compelled to fight the Cavalier. Techincally speaking I think we need to use the berserk opcode on target, but it might be worth trying out to make it so that Cavalier's ally within 5 feet temporarily become non-detectable by the opponents (even a bunch of seconds should be enough to make sure the "nearest target" of the compelled creature is the Cavalier). The intended role of this ability is to make the Cavalier a "protector", and thus allow this class to force a target to strike him instead of a weaker ally (e.g. target is bashing allied mage or rogue, the cavalier close in and try to forces him to ignore the weaker target and fight him instead).

 

Cannot use Lay on Hands

This is self explanatory, especially because of the re-enabled spellcasting, which risk to make this kit overshadow the base class imo.

 

Divine Spellcasting

I'm doing this simply because spellcasting is hardcoded, and I'm not 100% satisfied with my workaround. I could achieve the same goal with innates (and in an ideal world I would have not made the Cavalier a "spellcaster"), but in the end it might not be a bad idea to keep the system as close to vanilla as possible. The goal I'm talking about is to make sure the Cavalier gets at least a bunch of abilities which can ensure he can play the intended role (hopefully enough different from True Paladin's one). Cavalier's spellbook need some changes to meet such goal.

 

I suggest to add at least one Cavalier only spell per level and then eventually remove some of the True Paladin's spells if necessary.

- Shield of Faith (1st lvl, self only, long duration, +X AC). My idea is to merge PnP Shield of Faith with Knight's Shield Block (permanent AC bonus while using a shield). On a side note, using the semi-functional opcode 183 we might even be able to make this spell work only when a shield is equipped.

- Heroism (the current innate ability could be used as a 2nd lvl spell - or fit any other level by tweaking the values)

- Shield Other (aura with +x AC/saves to nearby allies?). The idea is again to merge PnP Shield Other with Knight's Shield Ally (they do almost the same thing) but implementing it as per PnP is impossible, and without the "I take damage instead of you" feat I fear it would just be a variant of Defensive Harmony. What do you think?

- Divine Retaliation (pretty much a divine variant of Fireshield - it would combo well with Challenge Evil imo)

Are there other PnP spells you'd like to suggest? If we need to remove certain spells from this kit, which ones would you take out?

 

 

Inquisitor

Nothing urgent to do here I think. It can surely be refined a little bit here and there but all beta testers seemed to agree this kit is already formidable.

 

 

Undead Hunter

Leaving aside that I'm always tempted to rename it Holy Hunter to finally give it a unique role to fit, the current solution might not be that bad either. If I'm not wrong the kit actually needs some sort of "nerf" or change because right now it overshadow the base class by doing almost the same thing with slightly better immunities and LoH upgrades. Am I wrong?

 

A list of things we might discuss:

a) tweak UH's Smite Evil to be more unique (I don't know if we should make it ranged only because I guess some players might like the possibility of building both a melee oriented UH or a ranged one - but something has to be done because the kit is really too similar to its base class imo)

b) limit the kit to medium armors (as above - limiting it would pretty much force ranged builds, while with IR installed ranged UH builds are probably going to wear medium armors even without the restriction to keep a decent DEX score)

c) add UH-only spells (Blessed Aim, Halt Undead, Undead Bane Weapon, Disrupting Weapons) and eventually remove certain spells (which ones?)

[kreso]

True Paladin

One small change I have in mind was to replace Divine Power (pointless for the Paladin) with either Holy Sword or Weapon of the Deity.

Seems fine.

 

Cavalier

I'd start with implementing three changes:

1) replace Smite Evil with something as close as possible to PnP Knight's Challenge

2) remove Lay on Hands

3) re-enable spellcasting

I'm all in. His LoH is the same as True class, and if he's gonna tank he can use spellcasting, yes. In addition, "hacky" feel is gone.

Agree on all.

 

Challenge Evil

As a start I'd suggest making it a sort of a "smite evil" which deals small or no additional damage, but forces the target to save vs. spell or be compelled to fight the Cavalier. Techincally speaking I think we need to use the berserk opcode on target, but it might be worth trying out to make it so that Cavalier's ally within 5 feet temporarily become non-detectable by the opponents (even a bunch of seconds should be enough to make sure the "nearest target" of the compelled creature is the Cavalier). The intended role of this ability is to make the Cavalier a "protector", and thus allow this class to force a target to strike him instead of a weaker ally (e.g. target is bashing allied mage or rogue, the cavalier close in and try to forces him to ignore the weaker target and fight him instead).

Sounds great, and I think it's doable even without the "non-detectable" part if you make it a on-hit ability (in theory, at least).

 

 

Divine Spellcasting

 

- Shield of Faith (1st lvl, self only, long duration, +X AC). My idea is to merge PnP Shield of Faith with Knight's Shield Block (permanent AC bonus while using a shield). On a side note, using the semi-functional opcode 183 we might even be able to make this spell work only when a shield is equipped.

Great.

 

- Heroism (the current innate ability could be used as a 2nd lvl spell - or fit any other level by tweaking the values)

Fine by me.

 

- Shield Other (aura with +x AC/saves to nearby allies?). The idea is again to merge PnP Shield Other with Knight's Shield Ally (they do almost the same thing) but implementing it as per PnP is impossible, and without the "I take damage instead of you" feat I fear it would just be a variant of Defensive Harmony. What do you think?

Hm.

Several ideas here:

1) Paladin gets +x saves, drops -x his own AC (if he's "shielding others", he aint "shielding himself", no?) allies get +x AC

2) everybody's AC gets +x bonus, undispellable

 

I like 1) more. Or merge these 2 and go with 1), undispellable, rises in levels to -4 at 19th. (-2,-3,-4)

 

- Divine Retaliation (pretty much a divine variant of Fireshield - it would combo well with Challenge Evil imo)

Are there other PnP spells you'd like to suggest? If we need to remove certain spells from this kit, which ones would you take out?

Cool idea with Retaliation. As for PnP - I'll leave that to others, my knowledge of PnP isn't that grand. For spell removal, I'm not sure. Will think about and let you know.

 

Inquisitor

Nothing urgent to do here I think. It can surely be refined a little bit here and there but all beta testers seemed to agree this kit is already formidable.

He's ok, I really like him.

 

 

Undead Hunter

Leaving aside that I'm always tempted to rename it Holy Hunter to finally give it a unique role to fit, the current solution might not be that bad either. If I'm not wrong the kit actually needs some sort of "nerf" or change because right now it overshadow the base class by doing almost the same thing with slightly better immunities and LoH upgrades. Am I wrong?

You're not wrong. He only looses on Disease immunity, and being immune to Hold is 10x as good. In addition, his LoH is far better than True Class - he removes a complete disabling effect, while True Paladin removes what a simple potion can.

 

 

A list of things we might discuss:

a) tweak UH's Smite Evil to be more unique (I don't know if we should make it ranged only because I guess some players might like the possibility of building both a melee oriented UH or a ranged one - but something has to be done because the kit is really too similar to its base class imo)

b) limit the kit to medium armors (as above - limiting it would pretty much force ranged builds, while with IR installed ranged UH builds are probably going to wear medium armors even without the restriction to keep a decent DEX score)

c) add UH-only spells (Blessed Aim, Halt Undead, Undead Bane Weapon, Disrupting Weapons) and eventually remove certain spells (which ones?)

Well, I got only 1 suggestion (these of yours sound fine, even if I'm not all that convinced about medium armor enforcement - you can do similar with IR speed factor thingie) - expand his concept against Demons/Devils. Whatever you do vs Undead simply doesn't cut it, especially when you will (I hope) make Lathander priests an anti-undead/blaster kit.

[yarpen]

I have to admit that I do have a bit different approach on Kits. They should be Variants - not creations on their own. I'll explain my train of thought now, ok? So, let's take a look at simplified list of true Paladin's abilities:

 

- Smite Evil

- Immunity to Fear

- Turn Undead

- Lay on Hands

- Spellcasting

- Immunity to diseases

- Attacks per round

- Aura of Protection

 

Cool. Now, how things could change for Undead Hunter.

 

- Smite Evil: becomes Smite Undead. Affects only Undead but gains additional effect.

- Immunity to Fear: do any Undead use fear? I don't really think so. I'd move immunity to diseases here.

- Turn Undead: mandatory. If possible, I'd even give him higher class level when using it.

- Lay on Hands: his Lay on Hands could even heal less or none life, but it should cure variety of effects coming from Undead. Stat/Level drain, Paralysis, Poison, Disease.

- Spellcasting: Is there any relevant spell at levels 1-3 that makes it mandatory to have for Undead Hunter? If SR's Death Ward and Protection from Negative Plane beome merged and are available at lvl3, I'd make spells available.

- Immunity to diseases: it became available earlier. So, either Immunity to Poison or Immunity to stat drain or Immunity to Paralysis.

- Attacks per round. We are okay with that.

- Aura of Protection: I'd make it work a bit different. Basically, having experienced Undead Hunter should mean that whole team is better equipped to fight against Undead creatures.

10th level: +1 to Attack Rolls against Undead

15th level: +2 bonus to Armor Class and Saving Throws against Undead

18th level: every undead creature in low radius becomes slowed?

 

What did we lost? I'd say nothing. Everything got compensated. Now, let's take a look at Cavailer.

 

- Smite Evil: while this ability theoretically should be gone, I'd keep it. It fits Cavailer. In worst case, make it work ONLY against Dragons/Demons and give that some kind of additional effect - and increased damage as when fighting against big guys, you bring big guns.

- Immunity to Fear: perfect.

- Turn Undead: you're the guy who uses his bravery and sword to win. You don't stand there mumbling things so skeletons go away. Removed.

- Lay on Hands: again, lesser healing while curing effects of Berserk, Chaos and Fear. Of course with appropriate level progression.

- Spellcasting: I'd say "NO" but the spell that breaks fears is okay for him.

- Immunity to Diseases: I'd say we should keep it. I'd still probably move it in levels and make it immunity to instant death effects.

- Attacks per round: yes of course.

- Aura of Protection: I wouldn't make this aura too specified onto fighting just large creatures. Still, I'd completely change the ability as it shouldn't be Protection. It's all about COURAGE.

10th level: +3 to Morale

15th level: +1 bonus to attack rolls against evil creatures

18th level: immunity to fear

 

What did we lost? Turn Undead and possibly Spellcasting. Having no spells would actually suggest giving him possibility of obtaining Mastery in melee Weapons while restricting him to 1 point in ranged ones. Or just forbidding them.

 

Last but not least, what about Inquisitor?

 

- Smite Evil: you are all about Mages. So, you get similiar effect against mages/clerics. I'd reccomend some slight additional effect like dispelling single combat protection or miscast chance or forgetting spell. Don't overdo it as targeting all mages/clerics is much more potent than usual Smite Evil. I'd say damage reduction on it could work well. Obviously if you can, restrict it to bad mages/clerics.

- Immunity to Fear: nah. Instead I'd say either Protection from Charm or +3 bonus to saves vs. spells

- Turn Undead: you are hunting Necromancers, it's k.

- Lay on Hands: reduced heal, but removes Charms/Hold/Chaos.

- Spellcasting: again, nope.

- Immunity to Diseases: immunity to Illusions?

- Attacks per round: fine.

- Aura of Protection: aand again, this aura is supposed to keep your teammates alive when fighting evil magic-doers.

10th level: +1 bonus to Attack Rolls against Mages/clerics.

15th level: +2 bonus to Armor Class and Saving Throws against Mages/Clerics

18th level: +5% Magic Resistance or 5% chance to miscast magic aura? I'd say even 10% but give it ST.

 

So, what about it?

Personally I'd say that Paladin is too stuffed. That +2 bonus to Saves just makes the whole thing one huge mess. If you'd remove it - many possibilites could be available for the class. Now, from mechanical standpoint, it just gains too much especially compared to Ranger who's like "bag of cheap tricks".

[kreso]

@Yarpen

You might want to read this forum's posts completely. Plenty of stuff has already been done (even some of your proposed changes), and plenty of stuff simply can't be done due to engine limitations.

Apart from that,

Undead Hunter doesn't have Disease immunity (nor can he heal diseases) even in PnP, and Undead (at least aTweaks Undead) cause Fear (Paralyzing Fear, Stench Aura and similar)

Cavalier curing Chaos and similar is really not appropriate for this kit, immunity to Instant death? I don't see this being implemented here (or anywhere else in KR).

Aura of Fear immunity at 18th level, when mages get Planetars and Alacrity here?

Inquisitor - I disagree about "hunting Necromancers" and "miscast magic/breach strike".

Demi mostly draws insipration for changes from PnP sources (Pathfinder and similar) and wants to retain many original game features so I doubt that he'd embark on such changes.

For other proposed changes, browse this thread, try out the mod.

[DavidW]

I'm very sceptical of the "challenge" ability. There are lots of games with a threat-based system, but BG2 isn't one of them, and without that I fear this will make a mess of the existing combat and AI structure. As an example, what prevents the Knight attacking a spellcaster and forcing them to melee rather than use spells? Even if you restrict the effect so it works only on non-spellcasters, they will lose the ability to take potions and use HLAs and kit abilities.

[kreso]

I somehow envisioned "Challenge" to be a "fair" 1vs1 duel (so that both Cavalier and his enemy - also should be a warrior class, using this against mages could be gamebreaking - are protected from both allies and enemies - no healing spells, potions, spells etc.)

Now, I don't know if that could be done in such a way, and it may be a little "immersion-breaking" (what is the explenation of them being invurnerable to harm from others?).

 

Quoting myself

[Demivrgvs]

@yarpen, it seems kreso already said everything I would have done.

 

Cavalier

I'm very sceptical of the "challenge" ability. There are lots of games with a threat-based system, but BG2 isn't one of them, and without that I fear this will make a mess of the existing combat and AI structure. As an example, what prevents the Knight attacking a spellcaster and forcing them to melee rather than use spells? Even if you restrict the effect so it works only on non-spellcasters, they will lose the ability to take potions and use HLAs and kit abilities.

I do share your concerns, but here we are not talking about adding a "threat-based system" a la Dragon Age, we are talking about an x/day melee ability, and the worst that can happen surely isn't worse than giving to any other class a "single target x/day" ability which causes any disabling effect (charm, confusion, fear, hold, stun, etc. - most of them are much worse imo).

 

@DavidW, may I ask why do you fear this ability more than any other spellcaster having TONS of similar or more disabling abilities?

 

We'll have to test how it works in-game to hopefully shape it to behave as close as possible to PnP, but personally I really have no doubt about it not causing any game-breaking or balance issue. Regarding its use against spellcasters, we can indeed restrict it to "warriors" (I think kreso already suggested it - EDIT: he replied one sec before me ), especially considering the intended role of this ability.

 

Undead Hunter

...expand his concept against Demons/Devils. Whatever you do vs Undead simply doesn't cut it, especially when you will (I hope) make Lathander priests an anti-undead/blaster kit.

You know I do agree that as long as this kit remains so specialized (note that Morninglord's radiant powers are extremely more potent against undead but they still have tons of utility against non-undead) making it shine is extremely hard, but we are still talking about a kit named Undead Hunter, because I don't know if renaming it Holy Hunter is within KR's "domain". :/

[DavidW]

If you're conceptualising it as a disabling ability that's fair enough, provided you're clear that's what it's doing. Thought about it that way, it depends like other disabling abilities on what blocks or counters it - does Spell Deflection block it? Does Remove Fear eliminate it? etc.