Kit Revisions (Paladins)

[DavidW]

A quick AI observation: it would be easy enough for mages to check both kit and level on a KR install. But I'm reluctant to do so because it attributes a little bit too much psychic power to mages. On the other hand, I'm reluctant *not* to do so because

- if I just check kit and not level, in effect they get immunity at L1 on SCS installs.

- if I check kit and then cast randomly if they're (say) below L10, I run the risk of iteratively casting the same thing against creatures that are immune. That tends to look unrealistic.

[Kalindor]

I suppose a relevant question is: should it be obvious to a 3rd party that a paladin is actually an inquisitor based on appearance alone? If not, then I think it would be odd for enemy mages to automatically know who is and is not an inquisitor. Maybe Diviners could know automatically but not other mages.

 

Even if they are able to tell that a paladin is an inquisitor by appearance, I certainly would not expect them to know the character level. If I were picking targets for my Charm spell and I did not know the inquisitor's level, I would just err on the side of caution and cast it at a different target. In this case, the "immunity at L1" scenario is not that unrealistic.

[kreso]

I suppose a relevant question is: should it be obvious to a 3rd party that a paladin is actually an inquisitor based on appearance alone?

From gamer's perspective, I see no trouble with it. Same as detecting if he wields Lirarcor or a generic +1 sword for purposes of wether he's applicable target for Confusion, or detecting superior saving throws.

From reality - no. But then, what does this game has to do with reality? Immune to Charm!? Try saying that to your wife/gf .

What happens with SCS is that Inquisitor won't have Charm cast upon him, and in game you will rarely, if ever, see it being used that early, unless you specifically go hunting for oponnents using it.

Cavalier gets it at level 5, however - you're bound to meet someone casting Charm prior to that, be it Sirens or mages/clerics.

[Demivrgvs]

KR's Paladins & SCS scripts

A quick AI observation: it would be easy enough for mages to check both kit and level on a KR install. But I'm reluctant to do so because it attributes a little bit too much psychic power to mages. On the other hand, I'm reluctant *not* to do so because

- if I just check kit and not level, in effect they get immunity at L1 on SCS installs.

- if I check kit and then cast randomly if they're (say) below L10, I run the risk of iteratively casting the same thing against creatures that are immune. That tends to look unrealistic.

Considering the class defining immunities are still gained at levels 2 and 5 I think that even if you opt for not checking target's level the scripts would still perform quite well in terms of performance and look more realistic imo. Guessing a target level within a certain range is probably fine (e.g. target is a low level critter, a worthy mid level opponent, or a damn powerful high level) but determining the exact level is too much imo.

 

Revised NPCs

I'm a big fan of making the NPC more special and unique. Here are some good ideas for BG1 (but aslo overpowered and I think hard to do. But maybe a good inspire:

 

http://forum.baldurs...#Comment_368410

Well, leaving aside that the modder there is more crazy than me if he thinks he can put all that stuff up, that he clearly lacks experience with this engine because tons of his suggested tweaks cannot be implemented, and that many ideas are indeed geared toward powerplaying...I do had a similar idea, but I also think it's best to not go overboard with it, and that using "standard classes" is best if possible (for multiple reasons). Creating so many unique kits with the level of depth I want for KR classes would be insane, and in most cases the right class with the 1-2 unique items or abilities are more than enough imo.

 

Wizard Slayer

Well, I'm glad I and kreso seemed to at least convince you that both classes have their pros, but I actually think the WS rocks even at low levels considering mages don't have PfMW to protect themselves from Disruptive Strike.

I am not sure to understand how I can easily perform a disruptive strike. Stoneskin and mirror image should protect from it, isn't it ?

I guess I should also use some ranged weapons , maybe darts considering the high APR ? Well, I don't like to build a warrior and put 5 stars in darts, it looks pathetic ha ha.

Neither Stoneskin nor MI blocks Disruptive Strike. Ranged weapons are a great chocie for KR's WS but higher apr is not crucial because Disruptive Strike's spell failure is not cumulative.

 

Also, ti would be nice to have a clue when we do perform a disruptive strike. (display animation on enemy). It's quite boring to always need to check the dialog box to be sure enemy fail the saving throw or not. (Same about called shot)

You are right, I'll try to add some visual effect.

[yarpen]

IWD2's Wizard Slayer was interesting as while he had only 5% miscast chance, it was cumulative. Promoting hitting opponent over and over instead of "hit him once then deal with the rest as he'll fail his next big thing".

[kreso]

KR's Paladins & SCS scripts

Guessing a target level within a certain range is probably fine (e.g. target is a low level critter, a worthy mid level opponent, or a damn powerful high level) but determining the exact level is too much imo.

While the idea is good, I don't think it would make any real difference. Only 2 things worth checking are

- if Cavalier is <5 then he can be charmed

- if UH <5 then he can be held (even if I'd like this immunity at 2nd level, since I want to tank Ghasts below Beregost)

It won't affect the game in almost any sensible way in BG1, and won't have any effect in BG2.

 

Revised NPCs

http://forum.baldurs...#Comment_368410

Well, I can clearly see where Paladin and Archer inspiration comes from. I wouldn't bother changing NPC to beyond recogition. Korgan-Berserker+unique axe is just fine. Most of NPCs already have something unique for them (Harper Call, Firecam armor, even in BG1 you'll see innate summons/abilities not available to PC) so it's covered - tweak the abilities would be my suggestion.

I'm against making NPCs more experienced due to age, as realistic as it sounds. Balancing this out may be a huge pain (slower progression for older ones and similar things - and how can you even balance elves/dwarves due to their age anyway? In BG1 this could be even worse).

 

Wizard Slayer

higher apr is not crucial because Disruptive Strike's spell failure is not cumulative.

You'll want weapons with low speed factor on him - daggers, short swords, darts, so even mages using Protection from Missiles can be hit. I like crossbows for a nice balance between damage/speed in BG1. Other options are Long Swords or axes (which can be thrown, but the animation is very slow - same can be said for thrown daggers). This only makes a difference with IR component for weapon speed factor.

Clubs are surprisingly good.

 

Also, ti would be nice to have a clue when we do perform a disruptive strike. (display animation on enemy). It's quite boring to always need to check the dialog box to be sure enemy fail the saving throw or not. (Same about called shot)

Isn't Disruptive Strike a no-save ability? Otherwise, great idea.

[Demivrgvs]

KR's Paladins & SCS scripts

Guessing a target level within a certain range is probably fine (e.g. target is a low level critter, a worthy mid level opponent, or a damn powerful high level) but determining the exact level is too much imo.

While the idea is good, I don't think it would make any real difference. Only 2 things worth checking are

- if Cavalier is <5 then he can be charmed

- if UH <5 then he can be held (even if I'd like this immunity at 2nd level, since I want to tank Ghasts below Beregost)

It won't affect the game in almost any sensible way in BG1, and won't have any effect in BG2.

That is why I said that not checking the level at all is fine imo. Not to mention that, leaving aside soloers powerplayers, there surely are better targets within the party than a paladin with extremely good saves and eventual immunities.

 

Revised NPCs

http://forum.baldurs...#Comment_368410

Well, I can clearly see where Paladin and Archer inspiration comes from.

Wow, I didn't see it...his suggested paladin is pretty much a copy/paste of our work, even the class description itself (just look at Smite Evil description and it upgrading at level 10, or Lay on Hands starting at level 3 and upgrading at levels 6 and 9, or the two immunities gained at levels 2 and 5). o.O I don't mind if they take inspiration from KR, but man, at least admit it.

 

I wouldn't bother changing NPC to beyond recogition. Korgan-Berserker+unique axe is just fine. Most of NPCs already have something unique for them (Harper Call, Firecam armor, even in BG1 you'll see innate summons/abilities not available to PC) so it's covered - tweak the abilities would be my suggestion.

My point exactly.

 

I'm against making NPCs more experienced due to age, as realistic as it sounds. Balancing this out may be a huge pain (slower progression for older ones and similar things - and how can you even balance elves/dwarves due to their age anyway? In BG1 this could be even worse).

Ages ago when I still actually played the game I already implemented this for myself, and even without slower/faster xp progression it all seemed fine. I'm not saying to make Aerie level 2/2 and Keldorn level 16, but to just have a small difference. Fortunately you also encounter "noobs" like Aerie and Nalia right from the start, while more experienced characters like Keldorn and Valygar are supposed to join you later.

 

It all comes down to one thing: is it a real balance problem if a party member is 1-2 levels behind charname, or higher than him?

[yarpen]

http://www.shsforums.net/topic/43563-bg2-soa-npc-revision/

People didn't liked that I nerfed most of NPC's attributes and I didn't really supported the mod after releasing. Still I think it might be relevant in terms of our discussion.

[kreso]

KR's Paladins & SCS scripts

there surely are better targets within the party than a paladin with extremely good saves and eventual immunities.

I think this sums it up - even if Cavalier isn't immune to Charm, it's quite realistic that the mage chooses an easier target than a paladin. I see zero problems here unless you specifically keep party members out of sight, but that's a much broader issue which can't be fixed and is ultimately on player how he'll play the game.

 

Revised NPCs

..........................o.O

It doesn't matter.

 

It all comes down to one thing: is it a real balance problem if a party member is 1-2 levels behind charname, or higher than him?

No, it's not. Even vanilla game is crazy about this - a level 13 thief under 1M exp meets Aerie at level 12/12, having 3 times his experience points since apperantly the game checks for levels and not XP.

[Darkersun]

Is it hard to change the NPCs XP/Level to check for Player XP instead of level ?

[Jarno Mikkola]

Is it hard to change the NPCs XP/Level to check for Player XP instead of level ?

Well it's done before by the Level 1 NPC... but I believe it is kinda at least(without that).

[Ardanis]

A quick AI observation: it would be easy enough for mages to check both kit and level on a KR install. But I'm reluctant to do so because it attributes a little bit too much psychic power to mages. On the other hand, I'm reluctant *not* to do so because

- if I just check kit and not level, in effect they get immunity at L1 on SCS installs.

- if I check kit and then cast randomly if they're (say) below L10, I run the risk of iteratively casting the same thing against creatures that are immune. That tends to look unrealistic.

That shouldn't be an issue with extended stats, should it? Since SCS already requires ToBEx to maximize its potential.

[Darkersun]

Maybe its me but my Cavalier didn't get:

- Lay on Hands

- Heroism

- Challange Evil seems to work fine

[Darkersun]

Sorry for the dobble post, I cannot edit my posts somehow.

 

Ok I read the changelog an realised that Cavaliers don't get Lay on Hands.

But what about Heroism ?

[Demivrgvs]

Maybe its me but my Cavalier didn't get:

- Lay on Hands

- Heroism

- Challange Evil seems to work fine

First of all, welcome on board! And more players trying out the beta is cool! If you are using the latest beta:

- the Cavalier does not get Lay on Hands anymore

- Heroism has been turned into a 4th lvl Cavalier-only spell now that he has Divine Spellcasting back

- Nice. Does its current implementation allows the Cavalier to draw the attention on himself rather than a nearby ally?