Kit Revisions (Paladins)

[kreso]

All aura-like abilities are "imperfect" so I'd like to avoid using them unless really needed, I was hoping EE would make them work perfectly but it didn't.

Exploit is possible regardless of the implementation, but SCS can handle it. It's almost the same thing as putting a character in front to make the mage target him and then casting invisibility on him, or drinking an invisibility potion. Not against Liches, but I'd rather have Lich target a mage with spell removals than Cavalier with ADHWs and similar.

SCS AI usually starts with some AoE debuffs like Malison/Remove magic/Chaos and similar, so don't worry about it - if the duration of "Shield other" remains short it won't break anything.

One way of balancing it is what Kalindor suggests - limit their movement. I wouldn't "root them to the spot" since it would defeat the purpose of the ability (have cover while getting in a more favourable position) but a 50% decrease is actually quite realistic.

You can also implement other features like inability to cast spells under the spell, casting time increase, THAC0 penalty etc.

Basically, I think of it as a "last resort" save option.

[Kalindor]

Since BG:EE added a turn undead level modifier opcode, are you thinking about implementing this for the Undead Hunter?

[Demivrgvs]

Cavalier

Shield Other.... just tweak it into something more like IR's Falling Star shield (e.g. allies adjacent to the Cavalier gain some protection).

Fine by me. Just don't overdo it for this kit - it's very powerful with his spelbook back. Probably not as much without SR, but even taking into account just new spells he's a monster.

Well, whatever Shield Other does is not a real buff for the Cavalier himself, as he does not get any advantage from it.

 

For example I was thinking to make it simply work as an aura-like Defensive Harmony which affects allies within 5 feet, excluding the Cavalier himself. Improved saves vs. breath might make sense too imo to simulate the Cavalier using his shield to partially protect alllies from Fireballs or similar spells.

 

Just a suggestion for nerfing Cavalier down a bit - how about removing magic damage from Challenge Evil?

I was thinking the same. Normal damage, protective effect on nearby allies and semi-disabling effect is probably enough.

 

I do thought about making it a targeted ability, but with the on hit solution we make sure it cannot be exploited, and the attack itself "justifies" slightly better the Cavalier interposing himself to protect the ally, eventual disabling effects (such as the current 0 movement rate at level 10) and the targeted creature deciding to switch his attentions over the Cavalier. With a targeted ability I should either consider it a charm spell or assume that a Cavalier saying "hey you, I'm here, fight me instead of my poorly armored fellow" is enough to convince the monster.

 

Undead Hunter

Since BG:EE added a turn undead level modifier opcode, are you thinking about implementing this for the Undead Hunter?

It sounds like an obvious thing to do, as long as ToBEx makes the opcode work on the old BGs too.

[yarpen]

Lay on Hands scaling makes it currently pretty bad in BG1. Also, Paladins do have some issues in lategame. What about some small, non-PnP touch on Lay on Hands?

 

At 1st level Lay on Hands restores 10 Hit Points.

At 7th level Lay on Hands restores 20 Hit Points, cures Poison and Disease.

At 15th level Lay on Hands restores 40 Hit Points, cures Poison and Disease and can be used to raise dead ally.

[Demivrgvs]

True Paladin

Lay on Hands scaling makes it currently pretty bad in BG1. Also, Paladins do have some issues in lategame. What about some small, non-PnP touch on Lay on Hands?

 

At 1st level Lay on Hands restores 10 Hit Points.

At 7th level Lay on Hands restores 20 Hit Points, cures Poison and Disease.

At 15th level Lay on Hands restores 40 Hit Points, cures Poison and Disease and can be used to raise dead ally.

In terms of curing disease and poisons you are actually nerfing it compared to the current version. Btw, I'm not sure what do you mean by "Paladins do have some issues in lategame". If you're still talking about LoH keep in mind that unlike vanilla's Paladin, KR's Paladin can use LoH multiple times (2/day within BG1, up to 6/day at higher levels).

 

I'm sympathetic to LoH low effectiveness within BG1 though, and I may be persuaded to provide a very small boost for early levels, something like 1d6, 1d8 or fixed base 4hp (aka making it start with something like 10hp instead of the current 6 when it's first gained at level 3). @kreso, Kalindor, or any other beta tester, how's LoH performing within BG1 right now?

 

Cavalier

@kreso or anyone who has tested the latest version, how is he performing?

 

For now I'm just tweaking his Challenge ability (e.g. no additional dmg), but I was thinking to keep Shield Other as it is until I receive a little bit more feedback...is it really exploitable?

 

Speaking of Shield Other, if the current version is too effective and/or exploitable, another way to preserve the concept could be to make it grant Sanctuary to nearby creatures.

 

Inquisitor

May I dare to suggest replacing the current +2 bonus to saves vs. spell with something similar to Divine Disciple's Sacred Defense? In our case it would be a +2 to AC and saves vs. divine casters. I think it is kinda fitting, and slightly helps to separate this class from the WS.

 

Undead Hunter

Still no idea what to do about this kit... The current version is just a True Paladin immune to paralysis instead of disease, different LoH properties (cures paralysis and lvl drain instead of disease and poisons) and slightly adjusted spellbook (it gets a bunch of specialized anti-undead spells - I need suggestions to pick the 4 spells he should loses in exchange). Btw, now that he has regained heavy armors I see no reason to keep his Ranged Smite Evil, without a proper drawback it actually makes the UH more versatile than the base class.

 

As long as it doesn't outshine the base class I may live with this UH until I manage to find out a more unique take on this class, especially because I'm really eager to move on and get to rogues, but I'm obviously not satisfied with the current UH.

[Kalindor]

@kreso, Kalindor, or any other beta tester, how's LoH performing within BG1 right now?

It's not great. They do get divine spells at level 4 now, though, which lets them get by until LOH becomes better. I primarily use it to remove the relevant status effects. TBH, it would be super useful in BG1 if it gained the ability to cure poison at level 2.

 

Inquisitor

May I dare to suggest replacing the current +2 bonus to saves vs. spell with something similar to Divine Disciple's Sacred Defense? In our case it would be a +2 to AC and saves vs. divine casters. I think it is kinda fitting, and slightly helps to separate this class from the WS.

I have no problem with the save bonus as-is. The number of arcane vs. divine caster foes makes me think this would actually be a bit of a nerf.

 

Undead Hunter

Still no idea what to do about this kit... The current version is just a True Paladin immune to paralysis instead of disease, different LoH properties (cures paralysis and lvl drain instead of disease and poisons) and slightly adjusted spellbook (it gets a bunch of specialized anti-undead spells - I need suggestions to pick the 4 spells he should loses in exchange). Btw, now that he has regained heavy armors I see no reason to keep his Ranged Smite Evil, without a proper drawback it actually makes the UH more versatile than the base class.

 

As long as it doesn't outshine the base class I may live with this UH until I manage to find out a more unique take on this class, especially because I'm really eager to move on and get to rogues, but I'm obviously not satisfied with the current UH.

 

Well, he gets the following:

-Disrupt undead at level 10 with smite evil.

-Lay on Hands cures level drain.

-Anti-undead spells.

-Improved Turn Undead ability. (right?)

 

Here are a couple other suggestions to give him more flavor:

-The Undead Hunter's training and sanctification rituals make his very touch anathema to undead. Any undead creature that strikes the Undead Hunter suffers 1D4 magic damage per level of the Undead Hunter (no save).

-In addition, any undead creature targeted by the Undead Hunter's Lay on Hands ability suffers the amount of damage that is normally healed and is paralyzed for one round (no save).

-The Undead Hunter's training against necromantic magic has rendered him resistant to its effects. At level 3, the Undead Hunter becomes immune to hostile necromantic spells of level 2 and lower. For every 2 levels of experience, this immunity extends to the next-highest spell level, up to immunity to level 9 hostile necromantic spells at character level 17.

 

*Edit: Also, while possibly overpowered, you could make the Undead Hunter's Aura of Protection shield allies from level drain.

[kreso]

@kreso, Kalindor, or any other beta tester, how's LoH performing within BG1 right now?

I find it ok, due to low casting time. I don't feel as it is bad.

He shouldn't be as effective as a Cleric I guess, but this has exellent scaling into late game. I like it.

 

Inquisitor

May I dare to suggest replacing the current +2 bonus to saves vs. spell with something similar to Divine Disciple's Sacred Defense? In our case it would be a +2 to AC and saves vs. divine casters. I think it is kinda fitting, and slightly helps to separate this class from the WS.

I agree with Kalindor here. For me, WS is "seperated" from Inquisitor plenty already. One is a light footed fighter, the other is an ironclad support. An on-hit effect ability against Divine casters, otoh, would be nice....

 

Undead Hunter

 

-The Undead Hunter's training and sanctification rituals make his very touch anathema to undead. Any undead creature that strikes the Undead Hunter suffers 1D4 magic damage per level of the Undead Hunter (no save).

Here I see a bit of a problem. Undead's THAC0 is so pathetic (apart few exceptions, and this only applies on an aTweaks install) this would barely ever trigger. Even things such as Skeleton Warriors have severe trouble hitting against full plate. Ghasts, Mummies and similar will hit only on criticals.

 

-The Undead Hunter's training against necromantic magic has rendered him resistant to its effects. At level 3, the Undead Hunter becomes immune to hostile necromantic spells of level 2 and lower. For every 2 levels of experience, this immunity extends to the next-highest spell level, up to immunity to level 9 hostile necromantic spells at character level 17.

This would be extremely OP in some instances (ADHW, WotB). I also don't see the real connection between Necromancy spells and Undead Hunter. In addition, making him immune to Necromancy would grant him immunity to Heal and similar spells.

 

I'm for simple approach - grant him a more powerful Smite vs Undead and Demons...at very least, he'll be useful throughout the game.

 

As for Cavalier, he's awesome. He redifines the definition of "tank" in BG1. I mostly liked his new level 1 spell Shield of Faith - that's outright amazing. Once aquired, there's little reason not to use it - always. It's simply that good - last long, fast casting, progression into late game - this has it all.

Shield other - I tweaked this to an on-hit ability, so can't comment on spell implementation. Seems a bit cheap (invulnerability mode for party weaklings ) As for an on-hit effect - if you decide to drop the use of "attack nearest" opcode, my guess is you will (berserk effect is not needed for the purpose of this ability) I'd dare suggest this as a no-save, short lasting effect.

Divine Retaliation - cool, but doesn't fit him unless you purposly decide to drop his AC so he can get hit. Fine late game, tough.

I'd rather if this somehow "pumped" him up rather than damage enemies...leave the damage to the sword, let mages use this perks. (example - on hit, gains +1 magic damage in melee for the next round or similar).

Heroism - fine. Comes late, maybe bit too late for it's effect. Level 3 would fit more imo.

 

Overall, nice. I'd play him for sure. But do buff the True Class, he's completely overshadowed by all kits now.

[Kalindor]

Here I see a bit of a problem. Undead's THAC0 is so pathetic (apart few exceptions, and this only applies on an aTweaks install) this would barely ever trigger. Even things such as Skeleton Warriors have severe trouble hitting against full plate. Ghasts, Mummies and similar will hit only on criticals.

Oh yes, forgot he gets full plate again. I am pretty sure Skeleton Warriors are quite threatening in BG1, though. There are those bone reaver things in BG2 that are are somewhat scary as well IIRC.

 

This would be extremely OP in some instances (ADHW, WotB).

Being immune to ADHW and WotB is almost the whole point. The Wizard Slayer can make himself immune to all spells for a short duration, so I don't think immunity to a small selection of spells all the time is beyond the pale, especially at high levels.

 

I also don't see the real connection between Necromancy spells and Undead Hunter.

Aren't undead products of necromantic magic? o.O The are basically walking necromancy.

 

In addition, making him immune to Necromancy would grant him immunity to Heal and similar spells.

That's why I said "hostile necromantic spells." You would just make him immune to the undesirable necromantic spells of the appropriate level.

 

I'm for simple approach - grant him a more powerful Smite vs Undead and Demons...at very least, he'll be useful throughout the game.

Yeah, I was for this as well. Here is what I posted way back when:

 

SANCTIFY ARMOR: For one turn, the Undead Hunter or target ally receives a +2 armor class bonus against undead and a +1 armor class bonus against demonic creatures. Undead that strike a character with Sanctified armor in melee must save vs. spells or receive 1D4 magical damage +1 per level of the Undead Hunter. At level 6, Sanctified armor also renders the wearer immune to the effects of paralysis and level drain. At level 9, the armor class bonuses improve to +4 against undead and +2 against demonic creatures.

 

SANCTIFY WEAPON: For 4 rounds, the Undead Hunter's melee weapons are treated as +5 for the purposes of determining whether an undead or demonic creature can be struck (not doable?). A Sanctified weapon receives a +3 bonus to hit rolls against undead and demonic creatures and deal an additional +5 magic damage to undead. At level 12, undead creatures struck by the Sanctified weapon must save vs. death at -2 or be destroyed.

 

Demi did not like the idea of including demons IIRC.

 

Divine Retaliation - cool, but doesn't fit him unless you purposly decide to drop his AC so he can get hit. Fine late game, tough.

OK, so do your paladins never ever get hit or something? Basically you can just make a Paladin protagonist and ignore all physical attackers with impunity?

[Ardanis]

Inquisitor

May I dare to suggest replacing the current +2 bonus to saves vs. spell with something similar to Divine Disciple's Sacred Defense? In our case it would be a +2 to AC and saves vs. divine casters. I think it is kinda fitting, and slightly helps to separate this class from the WS.

Sounds good.

 

Undead Hunter

So what about the idea of Holy Hunter? However widespread undead are in game, they still don't seem numerous enough to warrant an anti- kit. Wizard Slayer is different because unlike undeads mages are all semi-boss opponents.

 

Immunity to paralysis and curing level drain with LoH seem fine enough for unique features - as demons can paralyze too, you know.

 

Ranged Smite Evil - 50/50. While I generally find an idea of lightly armored ranged paladin abhorrent, at the same time it's something novel.

 

Extra abilities - mass hold undead and demons. Duration, range, save and x/day to be decided.

 

HLA - Holy Word.

[yarpen]

Inquisitor is supposed to fight evil, arcane magic.

Votary is the guy who screws with the evil priests.

[yarpen]

Actually the whole "ranged paladin" type would fit Demon Hunter a lot.

You don't need heavy armor. Whatever armor you wear, Demons will tear it apart.

You can't just go close on em', they'll tear you apart.

 

Having abilities to blind/paralyze/banish demons through ranged attacks would be actually pretty good and suiting. And still, we'd have well-thought ranged paladin concept.

 

Because in terms of Undead Hunter, huh:

- skeletons are immune to missles

- all the anti-undead weapons are melee

- all the anti-undead armors are plate mails

Nuh-uh.

 

I'd either reshape the idea of Undead Hunter or turn him into Demon Hunter (but that seems pretty awkward in BG1).

[kreso]

Oh yes, forgot he gets full plate again. I am pretty sure Skeleton Warriors are quite threatening in BG1, though

You can't cast Divine Retaliation in BG1.

 

There are those bone reaver things in BG2 that are are somewhat scary as well IIRC.

If you mean Bone Fiends, those aren't Undead - they're Devils.

 

 

e vs Undead and Demons....

Yeah, I was for this as well. Here is what I posted way back when

I remember, we were all for it.

 

so do your paladins never ever get hit or something? Basically you can just make a Paladin protagonist and ignore all physical attackers with impunity?

Of course he gets hit. But his skillset is made to avoid getting hit. Hence the inconsistency.

 

Extra abilities - mass hold undead and demons. Duration, range, save and x/day to be decided.

You can Hold Demons?

[Demivrgvs]

Cavalier

Shield other - I tweaked this to an on-hit ability, so can't comment on spell implementation. Seems a bit cheap (invulnerability mode for party weaklings ) As for an on-hit effect - if you decide to drop the use of "attack nearest" opcode, my guess is you will (berserk effect is not needed for the purpose of this ability) I'd dare suggest this as a no-save, short lasting effect.

I'm confused, I think you're talking about Shield Other and Challenge Evil at the same time.

 

Regardless, what about making Shield Other (the 2nd level spell) work as a Sanctuary on allies close to Cavalier (obviously excluding the Cavalier himself)?

 

Regarding Challenge Evil instead, I've removed the additional damage, and I was thinking to remove berserk opcode too, perhaps moving the 0% movement penalty for 1 round at 1st lvl and finding something else for its mid lvl upgrade.

 

Last but not least, which spells do you think we may remove from this kit to make the True Class more appealing? Right now the Cavalier does not get Sanctuary, Know Opponent, and Strength of One (undecided, it actually seem appropriate), then he will not get Holy Sword when the base class get it.

 

Undead Hunter

I still need to decide which spells should be remove from his spellbook. Any suggestion?

 

Regarding the whole Holy Hunter thing, you know my position on this matter: I cannot convince myself to change a kit name. It's obvious that a Holy Hunter concept would give us more opportunities to make an interesting class, but if there's any change to make the kit work without renaming the class itself I think we should go for it.

[kreso]

Cavalier

I'm confused, I think you're talking about Shield Other and Challenge Evil at the same time.

I've implemented Shield Other spell into melee hit when using Challenge Evil, so that nearby allies gain protection and enemies turn to Cavalier, even without berserk. There should be a screenshot few pages back iirc.

 

Regardless, what about making Shield Other (the 2nd level spell) work as a Sanctuary on allies close to Cavalier (obviously excluding the Cavalier himself)?

Fine by me.

 

Regarding Challenge Evil instead, I've removed the additional damage, and I was thinking to remove berserk opcode too, perhaps moving the 0% movement penalty for 1 round at 1st lvl and finding something else for its mid lvl upgrade.

Sounds nice.

 

Last but not least, which spells do you think we may remove from this kit to make the True Class more appealing? Right now the Cavalier does not get Sanctuary, Know Opponent, and Strength of One (undecided, it actually seem appropriate), then he will not get Holy Sword when the base class get it.

I don't think removing spells from Cavalier is gonna cut it. Smite Evil is a fine skill, but not enough. Regarding Holy Sword, I don't know how you'll implement this - just remember that it has to compete with some very powerful items. The only magicaly created sword I ever used is Black Blade of Disaster, others are simply opsolete with in-game weapons.

 

Undead Hunter

I still need to decide which spells should be remove from his spellbook. Any suggestion?

Sillelagh at level 1.

Barkskin, Spiritual Hammer at 2

Pro Fire, Strenght of One, Dispel Magic at 3

Animal Summoning, Holy Power at 4.

 

I cannot convince myself to change a kit name.

Why would you want to change the name? Leave him as an Undead Hunter, just expand his skillset.

 

It's obvious that a Holy Hunter concept would give us more opportunities to make an interesting class, but if there's any change to make the kit work without renaming the class itself I think we should go for it.

My toughts on this - if this kit had the ability to instantly kill any Undead by mere presence, he'd still be useless for BG2 apart killing Kangaxx. One can get a weapon which slays Undead in this game upon a failed save. High-level clerics turn them. Mages kill them with fireballs before they get close. Vanilla game features scrolls which grant complete immunity to Undead.

Unless you want to revise entire Undead population of BG2, UH will never be truly useful, regardless of .his spelbook.

[Kalindor]

Regarding the whole Holy Hunter thing, you know my position on this matter: I cannot convince myself to change a kit name. It's obvious that a Holy Hunter concept would give us more opportunities to make an interesting class, but if there's any change to make the kit work without renaming the class itself I think we should go for it.

 

Here is another suggestion: make the Undead Hunter a spellcasting-oriented Paladin. An example is:

 

Advantages:

-Divine Spellcasting progresses up to level 6 spells (OR gains a +2 bonus to casting speed).

-Gains a selection of powerful anti-undead spells.

-Turns undead as a cleric four levels higher.

-Smite evil disrupts undead at higher levels.

-Lay on Hands removes level drain and protects the target from level drain for 8 hours.

 

Disadvantages:

-No Aura of Protection.

-Can only specialize in blunt weapons (theoretically the most effective weapons against undead).