What can I expect from this mod? (balance question)

[Galsic]

I've been watching the progress of this mod for the past few weeks or so (you can't imagine my anticipation for the finished product!) I might be wrong here, or at least not fully accurate, but from what I can tell from your current plans and discussions, so far all classes and kits are, overall, getting a pretty significant boost from new abilities and such, with only your planned level progression providing any significant nerfs. I know that kreso (and maybe one or two of your other testers, I dunno) has been using SCS in his beta testing, and has been making his observations and suggestions based on that. Granted, I'm not familiar with the challenge level of the SCS series, but I'm not a huge challenge junky, so I don't anticipate using SCS. So figuring that and throwing in your other Revisions mods, umm...(see topic title). Maybe your testers can share the impressions that they have of this mod so far, too. Of course, this mod is still in development and evolving, so it might be a little too early for this question, but I'm really curious.

 

On a sidenote, I should probably take a closer look at SCS. It might not be as bad as I think.

[Kalindor]

I have been testing Kit Revisions betas using only vanilla BG:EE (no SCS). My perspective:

1) Fighter-types will be substantially more "active" to play, allowing for greater tactical depth during battles that was previously reserved primarily for spellcasters. There should be less click-and-wait during serious encounters.

2) I believe the plan is for Fighter-like classes to receive a larger "buff" compared with the Mage-like classes. If you primarily use warriors, you may notice a slight to moderate drop in the game's difficulty. Without seeing the revisions to mages and sorcerers, however, I cannot say that the power gap will be completely rectified.

3) I have heard the idea tossed around that SCS AI may eventually use the KR abilities against you if KR is installed. This would nullify any player-specific advantages of using KR. That is likely a very long-term proposition, however.

 

If you are planning on installing SCS2 and don't want a large jump in difficulty, there are several customizable parameters and optional components that you can tailor to your desired experience. For example, don't install the improved Bodhi encounter...

[Ardanis]

Revisions mods are generally being balanced with SCS in mind, yes. That said, you can always play easy/normal with SCS or hard/insane without it.

 

It doesn't add much challenge to BG1 part of the game, rather it makes its AI not as hopelessly moronic. The only real exception is the final battle.

In BG2, however, wizards do become quite more dangerous.

[kreso]

WoT

 

I don't think "all classes are getting significant boosts". Berserker is much nerfed, if not almost completely changed and makes for a very poor dual-class material, which is the exact opposite of vanilla.

Barbarian is also nerfed, and very much changed.

What changed the most, imo, is that all classes are very viable from level 1 to ToB. They are more diverse, and provide more options apart point and click, allowing for a deeper experience. Another notable thing is the excitement/fun factor. Barbarian, for example, has Cleave, and it game it works perfectly. Berserker is ultra fun to play now. WS will keep you on your toes with his spell dodge. Kensai doesn't need so much babysitting anymore and can obtain exellent AC.

True Fighter is now the most "tactical" figure in your party, with additional useful options apart from attacking (and in vanilla, he was completely outshined by Berserker in every single aspect).

 

As for SCS...

One of it's biggest advantages is customization. You don't want beefy mages? Fine. Want mages, but not clerics? Fine again. Want only fighters to have believable stats and to be proficient in weapon they're using? It can do everything to your taste. For more information, a rather comprehensive readme is available.

If you are thinking of installing it, I'd suggest it. If you're having difficulty, you can always ask for help, many people here play and have finished even the hardest challenges it offers. Just don't go overboard (Irenicus in Hell is indeed very hard, for example, Dragons, and ToB improvements as well). Read the readme, decide what you want and go with that. You'll never go back to vanilla game once you see just how stupid AI is in an unmodded game.

SCS1 (for BGT or Tutu, or EE) is imo quite a bit easier. SCS2 mages (think 3xSkull Trap sequencer party instakill, or Imprisonment. Needles to say, they target only vulnerable characters ) are indeed very unforgiving. Don't worry, they don't cheat or do anything you can't.

 

For other mods of Revisons series:

I believe that some of the vanilla game items are simply overpowered - Flail of Ages (33% chance no save Slow?! Elemental damage, ends with Free Action?!! ), SoTM (dispel per hit + invisibility which AI cannot handle. Yup.), Arrows of Dispelling, Ravager Halberd are some examples. There are more, even worse, but I don't want to promote abuse. Speed Factor system is non-existent.

Item Revisions not only balances them, but also makes previously unused items very appealing, up to the point where you don't want to sell anything but rather keep them, just in case ("this might be of use vs. that, or in this particular battle" etc.) There are no more "ultimate" weapons.

As for Spell Revisions:

Simple, vanilla game spells are often OP in their effects:

People on various forums often write silly stuff how druids suck. They have 2 most broken spells in vanilla game - Insect Plague (100% spellcasting failure with area of effect, doesn't require a valid target but you can cast it on your tank and then rush to battle, no save and does damage) and the all-powerful Nature's Beauty - no save, permanent Blindness, area of effect. They are apsurdly powerful, and these 2 spells alone imo more than make up for any drawback druid has.

Clerics - Greater Restoration - casting time 2 (or 3, can't remember) heals everyone wherever they are, removes level drain/confusion/fear etc. and not even sight is required. Broken? Yup. At least it doesn't permanently blind everyone around you.

Mages - bah... Mislead/Project Image/Simulacrum. I will say no more, but there are whole books written of the abusive nature of these vanilla spells.

SR not only nerfs such extreme examples, but also buffs low-level spells so they remain useful. For example, Bless is now one of the best level 1 spells for a priest/druid, and remains useful for all game.

SR also removes the annoying glow from Protection from Evil .

Overall, I consider IR/SR/SCS as a core install. Othervise, the game just doesn't feel right anymore.

[Mike1072]

My understanding has been that the Revisions mods are not intended to cause a net increase or decrease in game difficulty. That's what things like SCS are for.

 

What the Revisions mods focus on balancing are the different options available to players. The vanilla game has some items, spells, and kits that are good, and some that are not so good. By balancing this out and making everything useful, player choice is increased.

[Galsic]

Thanks for all your input, everyone .

 

WoT

 

I don't think "all classes are getting significant boosts". Berserker is much nerfed, if not almost completely changed and makes for a very poor dual-class material, which is the exact opposite of vanilla.

Barbarian is also nerfed, and very much changed.

 

 

Well, I did say "overall," didn't I ? Fair enough about Berserker and Barbarian, though; in fact, the threat of frenzy makes me reluctant to play Berserker in BG2, but even you said that frenzy makes that kit such a killing machine in BG1 that it could hardly be considered a drawback there. And, judging by current plans, the Barbarian is pretty much gaining just as much as it's losing.

 

Then I look at stuff like Fighter (called shot, 5th lvl proficiency in all weapons, tactician feat, hardiness) and Paladin (smite evil, buffed LoH, immunites, aura of protection), and I wonder what they lose in exchange. Don't get me wrong; I love these ideas, but y'all can probably now see why I ask how all of this'll affect the difficulty of the games. But then who knows how KR and all its classes and kits will develop, so maybe I should reserve judgment 'til it's done.

 

For other mods of Revisons series:

 

You didn't need to get into this; I was already convinced (though I guess I should've clarified that).

[kreso]

Then I look at stuff like Fighter (called shot, 5th lvl proficiency in all weapons, tactician feat, hardiness) and Paladin (smite evil, buffed LoH, immunites, aura of protection), and I wonder what they lose in exchange. Don't get me wrong; I love these ideas, but y'all can probably now see why I ask how all of this'll affect the difficulty of the games.

The real question you should ask is "What were they getting in vanilla game?".

[Demivrgvs]

Beta testers are more entitled than me to tell you how revised classes currently perform, but I can tell you what the goals are:

 

1) as Mike said, the main goal of all Revisions mods is to give players more valid choices. We want to make all items, spells, or classes and kits viable picks, reducing as much as possible the difference in power level between them, while increasing variety instead.

 

2) when it comes to KR in particular, the goal is to make all classes as balanced as possible for every given level. This means for example I want to try reducing as much as possible the (in)famous "fighters are linear, mages are exponential" issue (I'm improving mages for low levels without touching their end game potential, while trying to make warriors slightly better at mid-high levels); I want single class Thieves to be viable classes without having them to only resort to cheesy uber traps; etc.

 

3) last but not least, I want to improve the overall gameplay and variety. This is something I'm glad kreso noticed. I wish all classes to be truly fun and interesting to play, not just "click over target and wait for the battle to end" as with vanilla's warrior. And I wish each class to provide a really different game experience.

It's easy to give players 100+ kits by just taking away a bunch of things and giving each kit a different combination of +x hit/dmg/AC/spell slots/etc here and there, and a slightly different "unique" ability which actually isn't so much unique. The least worse example of this were vanilla's Barbarian and Berserker because at least they tried to make them different, but they still played the very same way. Within KR instead I think I've managed to make them truly different, not only for their stats, but for how they "feel" and how you play them.

 

Then I look at stuff like Fighter (called shot, 5th lvl proficiency in all weapons, tactician feat, hardiness) and Paladin (smite evil, buffed LoH, immunites, aura of protection), and I wonder what they lose in exchange. Don't get me wrong; I love these ideas, but y'all can probably now see why I ask how all of this'll affect the difficulty of the games.

Base classes have improved yes, but that's because in vanilla their best kits (Barbarian, Berserker, Cavalier, Inquisitor) were vastly superior to them. Instead of hugely nerfing good classes and keeping weak ones untouched, I've opted to make them "meet in the middle", making weak classes slightly better and OP classes slightly "worse".

 

Anyway, just for example let's take the True Fighter:

- Offensive/Defensive Stance increase his versatility and offer tactical opportunities, but they don't affect the class power level

- 5th lvl proficiency in all weapons is nothing compared to how the proficiency system worked in vanilla BG1, where putting points into few proficiency types (e.g. large swords) was actually allowing all warriors to specialize or master much more weapons

- Called Shots is the main new entry. Within BG1, where fighters already performed well, they are good tactical tools, but nothing tremendously powerful. Within BG2 instead (at level 10) they start to include full Disarm and Trip maneuvers and they indeed become powerful tools which might change the result of an encounter if used well.

- I still consider Tactician feat a work in progress, but the goal here is to improve mid-high levels a little bit because else a single class fighter starts to lose too much ground compared to a multi classed warrior or spellcasters with their level 6+ omnipotent spells.

- regarding the early gain of Hardiness, with a single use per day, keep in mind it's not the uber exploitable 40% physical resistance anymore

 

@Galsic, I could say much more, but it's better if I go back to work before they fire me. I hope I've managed to be exhaustive, and rest assured that if anything with Revisions mods prove itself to be OP (e.g. I think the current Cavalier still is a bit OP early on compared to a fighter) sooner or later it will get balanced.

[Galsic]

In other words, the mod shouldn't (drastically) affect game difficulty overall (change may vary depending on kit). Other than that, only other factor I can think of is that the AI won't be able to take many of the new abilities into account (which is a pitty). Is that all correct?

[kreso]

AI will use changed vanilla features and those gained automatically (enemy Berserker will benefit from Diehard regeneration his level is >10, will have a chance to Frenzy and he will, due to changes to Rage, be vulnerable to Imprisonment while Enraged). He won't use new features such as Called Shots or stances. Hopefully, DavidW will implement these in SCS.

Game shouldn't be much harder or easier, no.

Imo, it's harder with certain kits (Berserker, Barbarian and Inquisitor got vastly nerfed, which was needed anyway) but some kits are substantialy improved (Monk and Kensai come to mind, True Fighter as well).

[Ardanis]

and those gained automatically

Sadly, no. Permanent passive abilities need to be patched into respectively kitted creatures, and until we have those set in stone, they'll have to remain player only.

I thought about automating the process, but there're some cases where it may totally fail.

[kreso]

and those gained automatically

Sadly, no. Permanent passive abilities need to be patched into respectively kitted creatures, and until we have those set in stone, they'll have to remain player only.

I thought about automating the process, but there're some cases where it may totally fail.

I am quite sure that enemy Berserker gains Deathless Frenzy.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I am quite sure that enemy Berserker gains Deathless Frenzy.

Right...

Now, give use an example of a berserker in the vanilla game and you'll find funny stuff... Like the Ogre Berserker having no kit... etc but if you wish to test, use the Console and create this char for fun: sargrd04(.cre), he is named a "fighter", it's a neutral character etc, but is flagged as a berserker(and is a lvl20) in the vanilla game.

[kreso]

I am quite sure that enemy Berserker gains Deathless Frenzy.

Right...

Now, give use an example of a berserker in the vanilla game and you'll find funny stuff... Like the Ogre Berserker having no kit... etc

I don't play vanilla.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I don't play vanilla.

Well, if you read my edit, you could go dig and report your result... as in; Does the SCSII/other character patched include the ability in to the .cre file so it uses it... or at least so tat it's evident in the game while playing...