leania Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I wanted to make a real difference for "exceptional" strenght. With your table, str enhancing items would be completely obsolete. Hmm, ya, you might be right... Link to comment
Demivrgvs Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I hate you guys, I'm trying to focus on SR! Anyway, my 2 cents: - a +1 STR bonus should be as valuable as a +1 on DEX or CON imo - each +1 STR should offer something (*) - capping thac0 a bit more (like Kreso did) is nice if you want to make class base thac0 (or features like Kensai's bonus) more relevant - giving +2 dmg instead of just +1 is a must for god-like lvls of STR imo, at lower STR lvls a simple +1 might be enough if the same STR lvl also grant you the ability to equip better equipment (e.g. STR 15 "grants" Full Plate) The old table I posted was not reflecting something that could actually be taken into account when it comes to assigning a "value" to each STR lvl, Armor/Weapon STR requirement. This is more or less the current BG's Strenght Requirements. I think the only change I did within IR was lowering the insane 18 req from composite long bow to 16, do you guys think we need to slightly revise it? STR req didn't mean much in vanilla imo because everyone could get a girdle to get 19+ STR, but with IR I hope they can play at least a small role, do they? I'm even tempted to tweak a bit more a few of those STR belts if necessary (e.g. similar to what I did with the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength -> Beatification). Link to comment
leania Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 - a +1 STR bonus should be as valuable as a +1 on DEX or CON imo I fully agree with this! Link to comment
Jarno Mikkola Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I hate you guys, I'm trying to focus on SR! Then concentrate... just ignore the KR forum until you can come back to it. We know you will read it after a while, and you could actually read it all in one swipe, so you get the last/most refined when you come around, if it refined, and this way you can actually also take into account the earlier posts too. Link to comment
subtledoctor Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I wanted to make a real difference for "exceptional" strenght. With your table, str enhancing items would be completely obsolete. Yeah but the "exceptional" 18/xx strength only makes sense if 18 is the max. If you can make a half-orc thief with 19 STR, or make any other thief with 18 STR and then read a Tome to get to 19, then here's what happens: - 17 STR, read a Tome, you gain one level of STR - 18 STR, read a Tome, you gain 6 levels of STR ?? It makes no sense. You can't make Tomes or other bonuses go step-by-step through STRMODEX, so the only reasonable solution is to squash the 18/xx values to not matter as much. Happily, this means you can shift some bonuses to lower scores. My table: Str thac0 dmg bend bars carry 13 0 0 22 110 14 0 1 26 130 15 0 1 30 150 16 0 2 35 170 17 1 2 40 190 18 1 3 45 210 18/01 1 3 50 220 18/51 1 4 55 230 18/76 2 4 60 235 18/91 2 4 65 240 19 2 5 70 270 20 2 6 75 310 21 3 6 80 360 22 3 7 85 440 23 4 8 90 520 24 4 9 95 600 25 5 10 99 700 I guess +1/+3 at 18 to +2/+5 at 19 is still a pretty big jump... it's hard to deal with this stupid rule. Frankly the best way is probably to just restrict every race to max 17 STR, except half-orcs who can get 18. And just move most of the bonuses down a step. Holy crap, now that I say that out loud, it's so clearly the best solution I can't believe it. Quick, Alfred! To the Mod Cave! Link to comment
kreso Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 By "exceptional" I meant 18/xx and above (19,20 etc.) I like this table of yours btw. Think I'm stealing it. Link to comment
Jarno Mikkola Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 My table: Str ... carry 18/01 ... 220 18/51 ... 230 18/76 ... 235 18/91 ... 240 Have you actually considered how one measures the fraction of the STR ? Can't you set the carry weight to be the carry weight of STR score of 18 + 1 per 1 of the hundred ? So if: 18 ... 200 Then 18/01 ... 201 18/51 ... 251 18/76 ... 276 18/91 ... 291 18/100 ... 300 19 ... 310 ? Link to comment
subtledoctor Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Who ever said it's a percentage? Why does only 18 have these percentages, and not 19 or 16 or 8? It's just abstract numbers. They mean whatever you want them to mean. Link to comment
Jarno Mikkola Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Who ever said it's a percentage? ... It's just abstract numbers. They mean whatever you want them to mean. Yes, in the above case it's the abstract number that tells how much more you can carry over the 200 weight limit. Nothing at all to do with percentages. Yep admittedly the idea is a bit But it's really the only thing that can be measured from 0 to 100, so why not ? Link to comment
subtledoctor Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 FWIW, my new table with 17=max for humans, 18=max for half-orcs: Str thac0 dmg bend bars carry 13 0 1 22 130 14 0 2 26 145 15 1 2 30 160 16 1 3 35 175 17 2 3 40 195 18 2 4 45 220 18/01 2 4 50 225 18/51 2 4 55 230 18/76 2 5 60 235 18/91 3 5 65 240 19 3 5 75 275 20 3 6 80 310 21 4 6 85 360 22 4 7 90 440 23 4 8 95 520 24 4 9 99 600 25 5 10 99 700 Link to comment
Istfemer Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Revised attribute tables are a very, very good idea. I have a problem with subtledoctor's strength table though: I just plain don't like those reduced maximums. If we accept it, both original and modded NPCs would need to have their STR scores adjusted. And I'm not sure how those NPCs with exceptional STR would have to be dealt with. Reducing Sarevok's 18/00 STR down to 17? No way! The other option would be, of course, leaving their STR scores as they are. That is, giving those NPCs (now) illegally high STR scores. Coran had 20 DEX in BG1, true, and Kagain had super-high CON there as well. However, something makes me hate this option a LOT. I am convinced that a better, more elegant solution is needed here. --- +5 to thac0 and +10 to damage at 25 STR <<< good choice here. Link to comment
subtledoctor Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I have a problem with subtledoctor's strength table though: I just plain don't like those reduced maximums. If we accept it, both original and modded NPCs would need to have their STR scores adjusted. And I'm not sure how those NPCs with exceptional STR would have to be dealt with. Reducing Sarevok's 18/00 STR down to 17? No way! The other option would be, of course, leaving their STR scores as they are. That is, giving those NPCs (now) illegally high STR scores. Coran had 20 DEX in BG1, true, and Kagain had super-high CON there as well. However, something makes me hate this option a LOT. I am convinced that a better, more elegant solution is needed here. Well, you don't have to worry, those new values are only in my mod, I think the chance of Demi doing the same thing in KR is about the same as the chance of actually rolling 18/00 with actual dice in one try. And it only applies to strength, not other stats, so there's no issue with Coran and Kagain (I mean, aside from their stats *already* being illegal). The only reason to consider this is because of the stupid ridiculous 18/xx weirdness. You raise a good point about Sarevok and Minsc and Anomen, though: they are now as strong as a half-orc in my system. And Ajantis at 17 now effectively has the Strength that used to be 18. Etc. So, it's not a perfect system. I guess really the most elegant solution is to make 18/01 = 18/99 and just ignore those extra numbers there. Maybe some de minimis changes in how much you can carry, but no functional differences. Something like: Str thac0 dmg bend bars carry 13 0 1 20 130 14 0 2 26 145 15 1 2 32 160 16 1 3 38 175 17 2 3 44 195 18 2 4 50 225 18/01 2 4 50 225 18/51 2 4 53 230 18/76 2 4 56 235 18/91 2 4 60 240 19 2 5 65 275 20 3 5 70 310 21 3 6 76 360 22 3 7 82 425 23 4 7 88 500 24 4 8 94 575 25 4 9 99 650 Link to comment
Istfemer Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 How do you find this one? STR TO_HIT DAMAGE BASHING WEIGHT_ALLOWANCE 0 -20 -20 0 0 1 -5 -5 1 5 2 -4 -4 2 10 3 -3 -4 3 15 4 -3 -3 4 25 5 -2 -3 5 35 6 -2 -2 6 45 7 -1 -2 7 55 8 -1 -1 8 65 9 0 -1 9 75 10 0 0 10 85 11 0 0 15 100 12 0 0 20 115 13 0 +1 25 130 14 0 +1 30 145 15 +1 +1 35 165 16 +1 +1 40 185 17 +1 +2 45 205 18 +2 +2 50 225 EX 18/01-50 +2 +3 55 252-350 EX 18/51-99 +3 +3 60 352-448 EX 18/100 +3 +4 65 450 19 +3 +5 70 500 20 +3 +6 75 600 21 +4 +6 80 700 22 +4 +7 85 800 23 +4 +8 90 1000 24 +5 +9 95 1200 25 +5 +11 99 1600 Exceptional Strength is now divided into 3 rows:EX 18/01-50EX 18/51-99EX 18/100EX Weight Allowance scaling is obviously inspired by Jarno's suggestion.If such scaling is impossible to do, simply assign 300 | 400 | 450 lbs to those rows. Link to comment
Demivrgvs Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Well, you don't have to worry, those new values are only in my mod, I think the chance of Demi doing the same thing in KR is about the same as the chance of actually rolling 18/00 with actual dice in one try. LOL and you know me well then. Max STR set to 17 is a big no for me, for quite a few reasons which will be more clear as soon as I post all my stat and race tables. My STR table will be much more similar to Istfemer's one, but I'm trying to take into account what I said above: +1 STR should be as valuable as +1 to DEX or CON. A simple +1 dmg is not enough by itself imo, but we may consider using STR requirements for equipping item types as a valuable thing (and it is imo). Maybe it will not change much, but I want to study both STR table and item req. table side to side a bit more. Anyway, I lost a week because of the damn works in my house, and will probably lose a few more days, but I'll be back on KR very soon. I cannot wait for it. Link to comment
subtledoctor Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 How do you find this one? My STR table will be much more similar to Istfemer's one, but I'm trying to take into account what I said above: +1 STR should be as valuable as +1 to DEX or CON. The problem remains that the bonuses as you jump ONE point from 18 to 19 are bigger than the bonuses from jumping FOUR points from 19 to 23, and bigger than jumping FIVE points from 13 to 18. And in some instances that jump will be split in pieces (warriors rolling STR) and in other instances it will be lumped into a single point (min-maxed half-orcs, and all non-warriors with a Tome, and anyone with 17 STR who gets an IR STR-enhancing item). Even if you DO want all those steps, 18/01 to 18/50 should be the same as plain 18. You should only get a bonus for "exceptional" strength is you are in the exceptional part of that range. Plus warriors can't get plain 18; so adding a bonus for 18/01 actual makes a 'hole' in the range of values a warrior can roll. Finally, I don't like that you gain almost nothing going from 13 to 14, and from 15 to 16. Max STR set to 17 is a big no for me, Yeah, I backed off that too, now I use 18 max, still 19 for stupid ridiculous strong-as-a-hill-giant half-orcs, and just squash the 18/xx values as in the most recent table above. Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.