Should Turn Undead destroy your own skeletons (for good clerics)?

[toxin]

This is how it works today, and I believe it grants an unfair advantage to evil clerics.

It also just doesn't make sense IMO. From what I can gather from the d20 site you can choose which undead to turn (admittedly, it is not stated clearly).

I'm not sure if this falls within the realm of SR (is turning treated like a spell?) so apologies if I posted in the wrong forum.

[lynx]

good clerics summoning skeletons is dodgy in the first place if you ask me.

[Fiann of the Silver Hand]

Mechanics-wise, no. If this is the case, I would (and will) let the [PC] summon unturnable skeletons, since I don't think there are any enemies that ever bother turning themselves.

 

RP-wise, it could be a conflict, but I disagree with assuming that remains are automatically sacrosanct.

[subtledoctor]

I agree that good clerics summoning skeletons should not be happening in the first place, and my sphere system mod will prevent that happening. (Except for good cleric following Kelemvor.)

 

But if you *do* summon undead, then yeah, your Turn Undead should affect them. Undead are a monstrosity, an affront. TU smites them according to the characteristic of being undead. That should work regardless of who they're summoned by or aligned with.

[kreso]

Mechanics-wise, no. If this is the case, I would (and will) let the [PC] summon unturnable skeletons, since I don't think there are any enemies that ever bother turning themselves.

SCS clerics turn them on a regular basis; even in BG1.

There are types of Undead which should be "unturnable" by default (Skeleton Warrior); TU afaik can't be modded itself; EE added moddable level of turning (very nice actually) but choosing who you'll turn is impossible. It's kind of broken actually, since it's usable at will.

I fully agree that good clerics animating skeletons is fairly stupid.

[subtledoctor]

I fully agree that good clerics animating skeletons is fairly stupid.

Well keep your eyes on this project and soon we'll have that fixed for you:

https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/43174/faiths-and-powers-gods-of-the-realms-kitpack-and-divine-caster-spell-tweaks#latest

[kreso]

SR already bans Animate from good clerics.

[Demivrgvs]

SR already bans Animate from good clerics.

SR bans Animate Skeletal Warrior and Death Knight because I give good aligned clerics False Dawn and Sunray. I do planned to add Searing Light and ban Animate Dead but I still haven't.

 

On a side note, KR's Paladin no longer get Animate Dead, Poison, Cause Wounds, Aura of Fear and similar stuff.

[toxin]

Hey Demi, while we're on the subject of spells that casters should and should not get, do you think it would be possible to iterate over all party members and PCs in general and remove spells that shouldn't exist from their spell books for the benefit of mid-game installations?

 

I've had some weird stuff going on with duplicate spells and spells that shouldn't exist anymore

[Demivrgvs]

Hey Demi, while we're on the subject of spells that casters should and should not get, do you think it would be possible to iterate over all party members and PCs in general and remove spells that shouldn't exist from their spell books for the benefit of mid-game installations?

 

I've had some weird stuff going on with duplicate spells and spells that shouldn't exist anymore

For the most part I think Update Spellbooks of Joinable NPCs should handle that, doesn't it? I'm not sure if it affects charname.

 

Making mid-game installs easier isn't a top priority imo but if we find time for it we'll keep it in mind. Maybe updating the above component is super easy for Mike or Arda.

[toxin]

That's all I could ask for, thanks!

I agree that it shouldn't be a top priority, but it would really come in handy for beta testers that may switch to the latest beta each time mid-game.

 

I installed Update Spellbooks of Joinable NPCs, but both Anomen and Nalia still have the aforementioned spell issues after the install (my CHARNAME isn't a caster).

[Mike1072]

 

Hey Demi, while we're on the subject of spells that casters should and should not get, do you think it would be possible to iterate over all party members and PCs in general and remove spells that shouldn't exist from their spell books for the benefit of mid-game installations?

 

I've had some weird stuff going on with duplicate spells and spells that shouldn't exist anymore

For the most part I think Update Spellbooks of Joinable NPCs should handle that, doesn't it? I'm not sure if it affects charname.

 

Making mid-game installs easier isn't a top priority imo but if we find time for it we'll keep it in mind. Maybe updating the above component is super easy for Mike or Arda.

 

This component only affects NPCs you haven't met yet. Modifying saved games for something like this is more work than it's worth.

[cipher]

Can I be the heretic in this and vote for no restricted spells on alignment? The way I see it is that a cleric's training gives them the knowledge to do nasty or good stuff. Whether they do or not depends on the individual, but they shouldn't be prohibited from doing so completely.

Furthermore why would an evil cleric be barred from Sunray/False Dawn? They do fight undead as often as good ones.

 

On sidenote I wish there was a way to make evil clerics blow up undead instead of charming them... so annoying to have a bunch of worthless shadows to block the way.

[subtledoctor]

Can I be the heretic in this and vote for no restricted spells on alignment?

 

Furthermore why would an evil cleric be barred from Sunray/False Dawn? They do fight undead as often as good ones.

No, I agree with you on that, but there should be thematic restrictions - I mean, there's no way Lathander is giving his flock spells that raise undead minions. And there's no way Shar (goddess of darkness) is giving her priests Sunray.

 

Thus, the sphere system. If your deity has access to a domain, then you can cast those spells regardless of alignment (so LG clerics of Kelemvor could cast Animate Dead). That's how it works in PnP and I have a working mod that implements this in-game right now. It's not ready for release yet (we're preparing ~40 new priest kits to go along with it) but I'm looking for beta testers to kick the tires, so PM me if you want to play around with an early build with just the sphere system.

 

More relevant to this thread: this is in the Spell Revisions forum but it's about Turn Undead which is hard-coded and anyway not affected by SR... isn't discussion of TU better in the KR forums? Or, is the suggestion that the SR undead summoning spells should add a flag to the summons that make them immune to TU?

 

If the latter, then let me go on record as respectfully opposing that idea.

[Almateria]

No, humans need skeletons to survive