SR Revised V1.3.900 (2022 August 8th)

[Bartimaeus]

10 minutes ago, Hubal said:

I have A question about spells. Is there a way to quickly check which  spells are active on enemies or npcs? 

Or exactly what spell was disabled by spellthrust? 

Game with SCS is so spell heavy and now i am really confused.

No to both questions, unfortunately. When an anti-magic spell like Spell Thrust successfully dispels something like Spell Deflection, it must always display the same message regardless of what it dispelled. And being able to like mouse-over a spellcaster and seeing what they have active would be very helpful for those not already intimately familiar with all spells already, but not an option even in the EEs as far as I know.

[subtledoctor]

3 hours ago, Hubal said:

Is there a way to quickly check which  spells are active on enemies or npcs? 

No - arguably it’s more realistic not to know; in a real battle could you keep track of such things? But that's neither here nor there. I suspect it was not a conscious design decision, but rather just not something that occurred to anyone and/or was technologically feasible in a game made for 800x600 resolution. 

In any event, you might try try this out. It changes the visual effects for various spells like different Deflections, Globes, Pro Missiles, etc. It still takes some learning but once you start to recognize the color/animation of each spell, you should have a pretty clear visual indicator of what defenses are up (and thus, what defenses get removed). See DavidNYC’s posts on this page for examples of what it looks like. (The colors were tweaked a bit for the uploaded version, but that gives you an idea of the changes.)

[Hubal]

OK thank you Doctor. BTW where is readme for your component 201 in scales of balance? 

[subtledoctor]

6 hours ago, Hubal said:

OK thank you Doctor. BTW where is readme for your component 201 in scales of balance? 

Heh... it got lost and ended up in the Tome and Blood Readme. Weird.

Edited September 10, 2021 by subtledoctor

[Guest Carmosa]

I installed this on the current EE version, using the exact install order in the OP - using Ascension, SCS, and IRR as the only other mods.

There's some weird behavior I noticed with Spell Trap - it seems to absorb Dispel Magic/Remove Magic despite saying it doesn't. Specific case was the Lich in Spellhold, who uses Spell Trap and could not be dispelled in any way. It also uses Dispelling Screen, and using Dispel Magic (Mage, Priest, or Inquisitor) or Remove Magic (Mage) did *not* consume the Dispelling Screen at any point, nor did it ever dispel anything. The only spell that I could determine to be a possible culprit is Spell Trap, since the other spells were used by other enemies prior to that and were never a problem. The Lich also uses Spell Shield, but similar to the Dispelling Screen, using a spell protection remover did NOT consume the Spell Shield at any point; it did on other enemies that used it, so again the culprit seems to be Spell Trap.

[Bartimaeus]

2 hours ago, Guest Carmosa said:

I installed this on the current EE version, using the exact install order in the OP - using Ascension, SCS, and IRR as the only other mods.

There's some weird behavior I noticed with Spell Trap - it seems to absorb Dispel Magic/Remove Magic despite saying it doesn't. Specific case was the Lich in Spellhold, who uses Spell Trap and could not be dispelled in any way. It also uses Dispelling Screen, and using Dispel Magic (Mage, Priest, or Inquisitor) or Remove Magic (Mage) did *not* consume the Dispelling Screen at any point, nor did it ever dispel anything. The only spell that I could determine to be a possible culprit is Spell Trap, since the other spells were used by other enemies prior to that and were never a problem. The Lich also uses Spell Shield, but similar to the Dispelling Screen, using a spell protection remover did NOT consume the Spell Shield at any point; it did on other enemies that used it, so again the culprit seems to be Spell Trap.

Did you make any changes to the settings.ini?

How were you determining that Dispel/Remove Magic wasn't working instead of merely not having an effect? I don't think liches are vulnerable to dispel/remove magic in the first place (immune to all 5th level spells or lower, except for I want to say Breach, Secret Word, and Spell Thrust?).

I tested a quick SRR + SCS install on a BG2EE 2.6 game and was not able to find anything amiss. He cast both Spell Shield and Spell Trap, I used Secret Word on his Spell Shield (successful), then a Ruby Ray to dispel the Spell Trap (successful)...which then triggered a Spell Trigger that lead to another Spell Shield + Spell Deflection, both of which I successfully dispatched with two Secret Words. Followed by some Breaches after he kept putting up physical protections, and then killed him. No Dispelling Screen, but that's the nature of SCS and its random selection of spells to be cast and that shouldn't do anything but provide a single anti-Breach layer anyways.

(e): Tried again - this time, he cast Spell Trap, Dispelling Screen off the bat, and so I waited for him to get Spell Shield up as well before casting anything against him. Basically the same sequence of events, except I cast a Remove Magic on him and was surprised to see that the Dispelling Screen was dispelled. Neat. Not that it does much good, because he's still immune to its effects, but it did remove the Dispelling Screen which means one less Breach wasted. Anyways, no issues detected there.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[Guest Carmosa]

Well that is strange, I'll have to investigate why this is happening.

I know of course Liches won't get dispelled by regular Dispel/Remove Magic; they SHOULD get dispelled by Inquisitor's Dispel Magic (at least that was vanilla behavior; and in fact it worked on every Lich before the one in Spellhold when I tried). But regardless of the spell immunity, like you observed it should still remove Dispelling Screen - same with Spell Shield, which should fall to any spell protection remover regardless of level or immunities (or at least that's how it's always worked for me before on older versions, as well as on prior enemies in this version).

It's possible there's some mod interference somewhere, I haven't done rigorous testing by removing mods etc. I'll also check the .ini settings.

[Guest Carmosa]

Another question that came up:

Seems I'm having a hard time interrupting enemy casters, to the point where even dealing 100+ damage total in multiple events or pushing enemies across the map just doesn't interrupt. I asked in the SCS forum and they assure me it's not SCS that does this - since I'm only using SCS and IRR/SRR I'm wondering if SR(R?) does something to change how casters are interrupted?

[Bartimaeus]

7 minutes ago, Guest Carmosa said:

Another question that came up:

Seems I'm having a hard time interrupting enemy casters, to the point where even dealing 100+ damage total in multiple events or pushing enemies across the map just doesn't interrupt. I asked in the SCS forum and they assure me it's not SCS that does this - since I'm only using SCS and IRR/SRR I'm wondering if SR(R?) does something to change how casters are interrupted?

To be honest, I would not know how to change such a thing even if it were possible...short of enabling the "no interruption" flag on every spell anyways, but that would also apply to the party. In the original non-EE engine, the only way that behavior can be changed is via ToBEx, an engine hack, and I was under the impression that there was no way to change it in the EEs.

On 9/13/2021 at 7:59 AM, Guest Carmosa said:

Well that is strange, I'll have to investigate why this is happening.

I know of course Liches won't get dispelled by regular Dispel/Remove Magic; they SHOULD get dispelled by Inquisitor's Dispel Magic (at least that was vanilla behavior; and in fact it worked on every Lich before the one in Spellhold when I tried). But regardless of the spell immunity, like you observed it should still remove Dispelling Screen - same with Spell Shield, which should fall to any spell protection remover regardless of level or immunities (or at least that's how it's always worked for me before on older versions, as well as on prior enemies in this version).

It's possible there's some mod interference somewhere, I haven't done rigorous testing by removing mods etc. I'll also check the .ini settings.

You are correct re: Inquisitor's Dispel Magic (or at least SRR's version of it), seeing as I successfully used it a few times on the Spellhold lich with an epic-leveled Inquisitor just now to remove several series of protective spells that the lich cast. I don't know what's going on for you, unfortunately.

[Bartimaeus]

Question to the general public on the subject of which spells should break invisibility when casting them:

I have a large list of SRR resources that I believe should be marked as breaking invisibility/sanctuary. Anything that has obvious hostile effects, anything that summons creatures to fight for you, anything that should make it so you cannot be invisible because it has an active hostile pulse effect (e.g. Blade Barrier)...but there are some that I'm not as sure about. For example, True Seeing (and other anti-illusion spells) has a hostile effect that dispels invisibility and minor illusions - should that be breaking your own invisibility when you cast it?

Dimension Jump
Detect Evil/Alignment
Detect Invisibility (and similar spells)
Zone of Sweet Air
Raise Dead (and similar spells)
Farsight
Fire Shield (and similar spells)
Find Familiar
Shadow Door (has hostile maze effect upon completion...)
Mislead/Project Image/Simulacrum
Limited/Wish
Timestop
Freedom

...are the list of spells I question whether should break invisibility or not. Any ideas, insights, and rationales as to why they should or shouldn't break invisibility/sanctuary are welcome. For spells that do not have any hostile effects, my current inclination is to let them all NOT break invisibility - it is the closest thing to the original game behavior that can be had, IMO. Also, note that this discussion only applies to the EEs.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

9 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

short of enabling the "no interruption" flag on every spell

Wait what??? I've never known of any such flag...

[Hubal]

Another question that came up:

Seems I'm having a hard time interrupting enemy casters, to the point where even dealing 100+ damage total in multiple events or pushing enemies across the map just doesn't interrupt. I asked in the SCS forum and they assure me it's not SCS that does this - since I'm only using SCS and IRR/SRR I'm wondering if SR(R?) does something to change how casters are interrupted?

I have read in Subtle's Doctor Scales of Balance mod that there is a component that changes concetration checks. Basically in vanilla game the more damage you deal the less chance spell will be interupted. I am playinng right now EET with SCS, IRR and SRR and low damage is interupting spellcasting like crazy.(magic misile, larloch drain, poison tik etc)

 

@Bartimaeus I am using second level cleric spell Hold Person and it lasts for 1 turn. But third level druidic spell Hold Person or Mammal seems to last only couple of rounds. Am I going crazy?

[Bartimaeus]

11 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Wait what??? I've never known of any such flag...

...Maybe I'm making it up? I thought there was a "no interruption" flag somewhere...but now that I check, it doesn't seem to be the case. Whoops. Well, there goes that possibility as well, .

9 minutes ago, Hubal said:

Another question that came up:

Seems I'm having a hard time interrupting enemy casters, to the point where even dealing 100+ damage total in multiple events or pushing enemies across the map just doesn't interrupt. I asked in the SCS forum and they assure me it's not SCS that does this - since I'm only using SCS and IRR/SRR I'm wondering if SR(R?) does something to change how casters are interrupted?

I answered you here last night, . Although according to the rest of your post, there is apparently a way to change that behavior via the EEs...but no such kind of change is effected via SRR.

As for Hold Person or Animal, it seems to have a duration of 1 turn, same as wizards' Hold Person.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

53 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

should be marked as breaking invisibility/sanctuary

IMHO casting almost any spell should break invisibility. A select few should not break Sanctuary... but I guess now those are combined and it needs to be a universal list. Fine, in which case I would limit the list to Cure Wounds spells and very little else.

• Dimension Jump - you're opening up a door in the air, I think that should be visible
• Detect Invisibility - if it is a hostile effect that dispels stuff on other, like in vanilla/SRR, then it probably should break your own invisibility
• Fire Shield - it doesn't make much sense to me that this could be invisible
• Find Familiar - the familiar has to find you an speak to you, how could it do that if you are invisible? (Setting aside the engine will just make it happen.) Also this should probably have the 'non-combat only' flag.
• Shadow Door - the entire premise is that the enemy can see you and gets confused to the point of falling into the ethereal plane when you disappear... I don't know how that could work if you are already invisible (else it is just a touch-range Maze spell... and would you let a touch-range Maze spell not break invisibility?
• Mislead/Project Image - the entire point of these spells is that the image you create should be visible; and they both already grant the caster with invisibility. Simulacrum is a bit of a grayer area, but it's basically an illusionary summon... would you have Shadow Monsters or Shades break invisibility? These spells should probably work the same way.
• Timestop - it's more or less a hostile effect against the entire world. I would make it break invisbility.

[Bartimaeus]

3 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

IMHO casting almost any spell should break invisibility.

My greater concern at this time is purely hostile spells. Friendly spells can be re-visited in the future, but hostile spells should all be properly marked. But if friendly spells are invisibility-breaking in general, I can't really see much of a rationale for curing spells being excepted. I would be content with emulating original game behavior where targeting yourself with such spells is O.K., but as it is not possible to do so, I don't see why e.g. casting a cure spell vs. casting Aid should be any different from one another.

I think I agree with everything you said regarding the specific spells, though - though should casting True Seeing/Detect Invisibility be breaking your own invisibility with every pulse? It seems like it should for consistency's sake (same as other hostile "pulse" spells), but if that's the case, I should probably note it in the spell description? And does it currently break your own invisibility in the original game as it is right now?