SubtleMods: Will to Power, a 2E-inspired psionics mod

[subtledoctor]

3 hours ago, Guest UlvenAspiration said:

Anyone know what's causing this?

The generalized IWD-style “evasion” function, which is used by several psionic abilities, needs to be updated. I’ve got a working version locally, just need to find the time to clean it up and upload it. 

[subtledoctor]

Btw is there a chance a moderator could move this thread to the "Mescellaneous Mods" forum?  This started out as an invitation for discussion, but it turned into an actual mod.

[Endarire]

What about making a subforum for Unearthed Arcana/subtledoctor's mods considering how many there are?

[subtledoctor]

We talked about this a while ago but IIRC it sort of hinged on making the UA mods proper G3 mods, and we never got everything together for that. (Mostly due to lacking good readmes.)

[Endarire]

Your GitHub documentation has a typo:

Why are you mentioning "Run setup-might_and_guile.exe in your game folder to reinstall, uninstall or otherwise change components." for Will to Power?

[mickabouille]

Hi,

Many of the power mention a saving throw in their description, often with a growing penalty with psion level.

But except some rare cases (I think solar flash, chemical simulation and energy storm), none of them say which save is exercised (which help when deciding who you target the power with, fighter? mage?).

Is that something like "all powers of <discipline> allow save vs. <save> except when told otherwise" ?

[subtledoctor]

I think telepathic powers use a save vs. spells, and other disciplines all use a save vs. petrification/polymorph. But I’m not 100% certain - I’ve changed the saves once or twice, trying to find the best method. I want psi powers to be meaningfully distinct from magic. 

They might all use petrification, and be coded as “spells” of different schools. E.g. the telepathy powers are coded as the Enchantment/Charm school, and Ego Whip reduces the target’s saves vs. Enchantment/Charm abilities, so it sort of models the old 2E-style “psychic attacks” in how it makes the target vulnerable to subsequent telepathic powers. (Not to mention magical spells that simulate telepathic powers.) 

EDIT - yeah just checked and they all use petrify/polymorph, the disciplines are differentiated by spell schools.

———————————

Meantime, I would like to add some more psionic powers! I’ve modeled the “Kinetic Control” ability that was from... the Dragon Kings sourcebook, I think. Translated to this game, I think it can absorb one melee attack every round. I’m considering making it a Science and adding a Fire Shield-like effect, where the force of the attack will be converted into a kinetic attack against the attacker (basically a reactionary use of Project Force against the attacker). 

I think that’s not overpowered? Maybe only have the reactive Project Force happen at 12th level and up, or something. 

For Telepathy: “Mass Psychosis” - basically the Confusion spell? Seems appropriate, and actually kind of weird for telepaths not to have this…

For Biokinesis: “Natural Metamorphosis,” maybe bring some animal shapeshift forms over from FnP.

Now just need to come up with another science for Pyrokinesis and Clairsentience...

Edited March 29, 2022 by subtledoctor

[subtledoctor]

Hmm… i might be able to implement something like “Magnify,” where you use the power and then a subsequent power can have its effect doubled. Could this make sense as a power in the Clairsentience discipline? Something like, it sharpens your senses to the flow of psionic energy and allows another power to be used to maximum effect? It’s a bit of a stretch conceptually, but 1) it would be useful and cool; 2) I think I can see exactly how to do it. Thoughts?

[mickabouille]

Thanks for the precision about saves.

Mass psychosis? Completely agree, that seems fitting for telepathy.

The biokinesis thing, like... slightly less powerful forms than a druid, able to use psy power while shapeshifted?

Magnify: I don't know, a bit imprecise on the effect ; likecausing the effect twice? or doubling duration OR damage OR ZoE? (would need to be handmade for each power?)

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, mickabouille said:

The biokinesis thing, like... slightly less powerful forms than a druid, able to use psy power while shapeshifted?

Yeah, shapeshifting is a PnP psionic thing, but more limited than the Polymorph spell because it's not magic. Like, the psionicist cannot really alter their size or mass; so you could become a wolf or a boar or something, but not a polar bear.  I left it out because it seems a bit of an 'extreme' effect for this toned-down very not magical version of psionics. But, OTOH, why not? Make an ability that lets you choose from some basic, size-M natural animals. Maybe design them more for utility than melee power, like a wolf that can run fast, a panther that can hide in shadows, a beetle with good AC vs. piercing, a boar with good AC vs. blunt... stuff like that. And then the pinnacle of the Biokinesis discipline is the greater werewolf shapeshift, where you actually do it for the melee power.

Yeah, I don't see why you couldn't use psi powers while shapeshifted. Well, I guess I could see arguments either way. But the idea doesn't offend me.

2 hours ago, mickabouille said:

or doubling duration OR damage OR ZoE? (would need to be handmade for each power?)

That, and yes. But consider that a lot of the powers already have something like this this built in. Many of them look like this:

Quote

Mental Domination: this ability allows a psion to take over the mind of a humanoid for up to 10 rounds. The target is dominated for 3 rounds unless they make a saving throw; for 7 rounds after that, the target can save once each round to try to break the domination. At 6th level the save is rolled with a -1 penalty, and at 12th level the penalty increases to -2.

Quote

Generate Lightning: after taking a few moments to collect static energy from the surrounding area, the rogue can discharge it as violent lightning energy. The lightning strikes a chosen target and arcs to any other enemies within 10 feet (the psion has some measure of control over the energy and can protect <PRO_HISHER> companions). The discharge does 2d6 lightning damage. At 6th level the damage is increased to 3d6, and at 12th level the damage is increased to 4d6.

Many (not all) abilities have some form of minor level scaling. I would just add a stronger, magnified version of those. So the magnified version of Domination would have a -4 save penalty, and the magnified version of Generate Lightning would do ~6d6 damage. You could achieve stronger effects by spending 10 PSPs up front on the Magnify power, and then spending a ~50% higher PSP cost on the next power you use. It wouldn't be efficient, but in certain situations where you need to go nova on someone, it might be worth it. (Consider a telepath doing this: you hit them with an Ego Whip and then Id Insinuation, and then Magnify your Domination... the target ends up with like a -8 save penalty. It would take two rounds and almost 40 PSPs, but if you really need to grab control of one of the enemies...)

I originally wanted to let the player choose how many PSPs to spend on a given ability, and have the magnitude of the ability respond to that choice - like "upcasting" a spell in later editions. But I could never think of how to implement it without creating a UX disaster. This could give players that ability, to some extent. (And, coincidentally, it is precisely how 2E PnP handled it.)

I think it's probably worth adding. The bigger question to me is, would it be super weird in the Clairsentience discipline, even with some fluff text to justify it? Maybe it should just be an innate ability that you get at 10th level or something, and I should come up with a different Clairsentience ability.

Edited March 30, 2022 by subtledoctor

[mickabouille]

I must say the relation between clairsentience and your proposed Magnify wasn't really clear, so the blurb would clearly be needed.

To me that really seems more like a "meta"-psionic (not the same that this mod's use of the word, more like e.g. metamagic feats in DD3). Just one that has a psi point cost...

Well that probably doesn't help

[Endarire]

I like magnify and manifesting while shapeshifted.

[subtledoctor]

Okay, I've got an alternative possibility for a new Clairsentient science: "Avoid Fate." Basically make it something like the "Death Ward" cleric spell - block any spell or effect that would instantly kill the psion. Maybe even do something like, don't let your hit points go below 1, but if the effect ends and you only have 1 hit point then you are knocked unconscious and take long-term stat damage. Maybe even block healing spells while the ability is in effect. (Idea being it lets you sidestep your fate both in regard to dying and healing (where healing is "not-dying").)

I've got Mass Hysteria written up and ready to go. I've got a version of the telekinetic science "Kinetic Control" written up, which needs testing.  (This is from the Dark Sun sourcebook, the Will and the Way. It is frankly an insane ability - "while a psionicist maintains this ability, he is immune to all physical impacts." My idea is to tone it down: since it seems like something you have to focus your attention on, we can have it block a single attack each round. The way this is coded, is just like Pro Magic Weapons, with an opcode 232 contingency that cancels the protection when you are hit. ("Hits" register through PfMW for this purpose.) I need to make sure that actually works to block just one attack each round. Also, this sort of steps on the conceptual toes of Carapace, which also blocks one attack each round (but that one uses the Stoneskin mechanism). On the one hand, this mechanic is kind of more appropriate for Kinetic Control, since it involves actively blocking an attack with your mind. So maybe Carapace should change? Maybe it should just be like normal Stoneskin? OTOH maybe it's okay for them both to work this way. It means that if you focus on both Telekinesis and Biokinesis, you can apply both Kinetic Control and Carapace, and thereby block two attacks each round. This is very good, but in high-level play it still leaves you fairly vulnerable - it's nowhere near as good as a wizard's PfMW or IWD cleric's Shield of Lathander.

Assuming we like shapeshfiting for the Biokinesis discipline, that leaves Pyrokinesis lacking another science. What would be a good energy-based ability... oh, hey:

On 3/29/2022 at 5:30 PM, subtledoctor said:

I might be able to implement something like “Magnify,” where you use the power and then a subsequent power can have its effect doubled. Could this make sense as a power in the Clairsentience discipline?

On 3/30/2022 at 2:48 PM, mickabouille said:

I must say the relation between clairsentience and your proposed Magnify wasn't really clear

Maybe Magnify would work in the Pyrokinesis discipline. Something like, it amplifies your own psionic energy - at a cost, and temporarily. So you use the Magnify power and then the next power you use has stronger effects and a greater PSP cost. Then back to normal.

Alternatively, the Death Ward thing for Clairsentience made me think of Negative Plane Protection. Maybe a pyrokinetic science could let a psion channel positive energy: blocking level drain effects and doing extra melee damage to undead targets.

Thought on any of this?

Edited April 23, 2022 by subtledoctor

[mickabouille]

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I've got an alternative possibility for a new Clairsentient science: "Avoid Fate."

I think it fits Clairsentience, yes. Thematically,  I mean. For the balance aspect I couldn't say, I'm not really good as this.

This reminds me of Avoid death, maybe that's the inspiration (at least for the name?).

Wasn't there some ability that allowed to reroll failed saves once (unless I mix-up other games...). That could be another mechanic for the same abstract idea.

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Maybe Magnify would work in the Pyrokinesis discipline. Something like, it amplifies your own psionic energy - at a cost, and temporarily. So you use the Magnify power and then the next power you use has stronger effects and a greater PSP cost. Then back to normal.

I had to go back reading the power lists, but I think that could work, more easily than clairsentience.

The positive energy channelling seems a bit closer though. But maybe that just comes down on how wll you writre the description to convince the reader that"Yes, itmakes sense".

 

Not exactly on topic but : I see you're trying to add a 4th science in all disciplines,and there's the condition that " you must learn all three sciences (and be 13th level) before you can learn the discipline's high science" (second post in the topic, I haven't checked if it's still correct). Do you intend to make that "you must learn all four sciences to learn the high science" or rather "you must learn three sciences from the discipline to learn the high science"?

[subtledoctor]

17 hours ago, mickabouille said:

I see you're trying to add a 4th science in all disciplines,and there's the condition that " you must learn all three sciences (and be 13th level) before you can learn the discipline's high science" (second post in the topic, I haven't checked if it's still correct). Do you intend to make that "you must learn all four sciences to learn the high science"

Probably, yes. Only for the sake of simplicity - it's easier to internalize and remember "learn all abilities of one tier before learning any abilities from the next tier" than "learn some arbitrary fraction of the abilities from one tier before learning some from the next tier." This way also leads to specializing in certain disciplines, forcing you to really define your character's focus. I may need to let you learn abilities faster, to compensate... I'd like the thief/psion to be able to master about 4 disciplines by the end of SoA, and get several high sciences in TOB; and let the warrior/psions master 3+ disciplines at the end of SoA and 4 disciplines + some high sciences in TOB.

17 hours ago, mickabouille said:

Wasn't there some ability that allowed to reroll failed saves once (unless I mix-up other games...). That could be another mechanic for the same abstract idea.

Yes, I managed to simulate IWD's Evasion ability and extend it to grant an extra saving throw for any arbitrary category of effects. E.g. I use it for the "Slippery Mind" feat to allow a second save to avoid Sleep/Charm/Confusion effects, and I give rangers an extra saving throw to avoid poison or disease effects. I also use it in this mod: the Mind Blank devotion gives you an extra save against any mental attack (vs. the Intellect Fortress science which gives straight immunity), and the Unhindered Mobility devotion gives an extra save to avoid any Hold/Slow/Stun effect. I could do the same for instant-death effects... but then, compare it to Death Ward, which gives full immunity and is only a 4th-level spell. I feel like a science should match that.

Could maybe use the saving throw mechanism for 'non-instant' death - set minimum 1 hp, but if you ever actually have 1 hp, make a saving throw or die. Maybe keep saving every round as long as you have 1 hp, so you can die at any moment unless/until you get some healing. That might be cool. (Kinda reminds me of the 5E death mechanic.)

Edited April 23, 2022 by subtledoctor