SubtleMods: Will to Power, a 2E-inspired psionics mod

[Guest guest]

very interesting mod, but I got a few questions to ask:
 

1) What's the tier of the class? Do you think it compares with a mage?

2) Do you suggest to install any particular component from your other mods? Personally I'm only for the revised saving throw component from TnB because I would like to be as close to "vanilla" as possible.

3) Did I understand wrong, or you created a weird mix of thief\psion, ranger\psion rather than a pure class psion?

4) Any particular thing or thought to share behind the class? I saw the mechanics of the powers and so on. Is there any particular and breathtaking spell ?

[subtledoctor]

Psionics is not powerful.  Psionic abilities come from within, without any reliance on things like a universe-wide energy field presided over by a benevolent omnipotent goddess.  The "Weave" of magical energy in the Forgotten Realms is like the Earth's magnetic field, or solar rays: ubiquitous and highly energetic.  In Faerun you can tap that energy by using certain patterns, formulae, and invocations.  Those invocations etc. are like an electric motor, like those in a Tesla automobile: they can capture and use the energy for tremendous results, like pushing the car from 0-60 in 3 seconds.  That's magic.

Psionics uses your own energy.  It's like riding a bicycle.  Compared to the normal limits of the human body, a bicycle is a great force multiplier, efficiently and effectively letting you move quite fast and create much more momentum than usual.  But, it's nothing like an automobile.

Where low-level magic can create a large 10d6 explosion, psionics can create a small 4d4 fire.  Where low-level magic can paralyze five creatures, psionics can paralyze one - and the victim then gets to save every round to overcome the effect.  Where low-level magic can Haste the whole party and all allies for several turns, psionics can haste the psionicist only, for a few rounds.

In short, psionics is not powerful. Not as power is defined in this game, anyway.  The more important question is, is psionics useful? 

I conceived this version of a psionicist as a thief kit, a variant of the idea of a normal person who self-reliant instead of using external tools like magic or powerful weaponry.  Thieves rely on cleverness and agility; the psionicist relies on the power of the mind.  But also cleverness and agility and thief skills.  More recently, the psionics system has changed, and now it needs the 'cast spell' button to work.  So the psionicist has to be in the wizard, sorcerer, bard, cleric, druid, or shaman class.  None of those are a great fit... well, the bard kind of is, but I hate that bards are limited to the Pick Pockets skill.  So instead I converted the conceptual blend of thief skills + psionics into a proper multiclass.  The 2E psionicist has middle-of-the-road hit dice and thac0 progression, so the best fit is a cleric/thief.  Upon further consideration, once I had fit the psionic class abilities into a cleric kit, I realized I could make variants with other cleric multiclasses, like fighter/psion, mage/psion, and ranger/psion.  Only priest/psions are impossible, but I think that's okay, lore-wise - it makes sense that someone cultivating the full power of their own self would be unable to submit to the worship of some deity.  (Especially as deities are conceived in the Forgotten Realms, being fairly petty and fallible.)

Each version, I think, is useful.  Warrior/psions can fight like other warriors, and use psionics to increase their effectiveness; thief/psions can use psionics a bit more, and can also find traps and open locks for you.  I see a weaker case for mage/psions, since the power of their wizard spells will so surpass the power of their psionics.  That's why I only added that variant as a favor to another poster in this thread.

I could add a single-class psion in the cleric class... but it would be extremely underwhelming.  Psionic powers are not very strong, and if you have no other skills to fall back on, the psion's utility in the party would be pretty low.  The basic idea here is, thieves tend not to be very powerful; but you usually need one in the party.  The basic thief/psion can fill that role, and also give you some extra features to play around with.  You want a warrior or three in your party, so a fighter/psion could fill that role and give you some extra features to play with.  But considering a bare, single-class psion... you still need a thief, you still probably need a priest, you still need a warrior or three, and you probably want an arcane caster.  So where does the psion fit?  It cannot substitute for any of those roles, so it would end up just taking up space.

8 hours ago, Guest guest said:

Do you suggest to install any particular component from your other mods? Personally I'm only for the revised saving throw component from TnB because I would like to be as close to "vanilla" as possible.

It reeeeally depends on what you want out of the mods.  You should try the Mana Sorcerer mod, because it gives you a choice: you can play with mana points, or you can ignore that and play the sorcerer exactly as in the vanilla game.You could try Tome & Blood's multiclass sorcerers, since they only allow the sorcerer to be multiclass but do not add anything new to the class itself.  You could try Faiths & Powers' multiclass druids, for the same reason.

[Psyrista]

I'm intrigued to see how these power trade-offs between starting class and Psion multiclass play out in practice. I'll almost certainly be working a Psypher into my next playthrough (Bhaalspawn or otherwise), but on paper alone I'm having difficulty working out exactly how this power balancing act has been struck - especially when the changes made by mods like Might and Guile to these based classes/kits are factored in.

What I mean by this is that, as touched on briefly earlier in this thread, it feels like the Ranger loses the least vs. Thieves and Fighters when adopting these powers.

Assuming that some of M&G's base mechanical changes apply to these classes to, such as 2x backstab for all rangers etc., on top of differing levels of PSPs to spend between each class, the Fighter's armor restrictions and the reduced power of Psionics vs. magic, then this problem becomes magnified - if you're not wearing plate, in practical terms you're reduced to backstabbing, spell flinging or ranged attacking. If rangers have stealth and are granted the ability to backstab with M&G (good grief, I hope this does carry over!) then you've immediately made the Soulblade redundant and look to be grossly outclassing the Psionist in most areas outside of PSP fuel. 

Then factor in what the Psionist offers vs the base thief options. The reduced backstab multiplier and heavily reduced thievery points (exacerbated by the power kick given to base thieves in MG: i.e. Cleric THAC0, 20 thievery points on kit, feats) seem to necessitate the need for a 2nd thief for a good chunk of the game - although obviously this is hardly an challenge exclusive to this mod, what with the 3,000 NPC thieves already in-game...

The issue I see here is, as you've just touched on yourself, realistically you've got limited room in a functional party to spare on what psionics can bring by themselves. Obviously it's unfair to compare these multiclass kits with basically anything that has /mage as part of its setup in terms of raw power - I'm more focused on what the other classes are losing. Psionist feels like it might be the biggest loser here, as it seems as if it'd be an exponentially weaker mage/thief in terms of practicality.

Of course, I absolutely understand the logic of the reduced power of psionics vs. some of the ludicrously powerful magic in-game (even when factoring in the various spell revision mods). I'm simply curious to see just how much the Psionist can bring to the party - apart from RP flair - that isn't already being provided by either the empowered base thief & kits or various thief multis, not to mention many of the other options offered up in your mods - the bards, new multis and so on.

I wouldn't expect a Psionist, Psypher, Soulblade etc. to be so good that they're effectively filling 2/6 of your party slots, letting you carry something else - rather I'm trying to ascertain if they're good enough on their own merit to at least be at 1/6. Any less than that, and suddenly they're the class that's being carried.

Initially I assumed it was the combination of self-sufficiency and flexibility, but from reading your thoughts through this thread I'm getting the impression that PSPs are limited enough that, in practice, you could be operating on a similar level of resource management as any other caster, just with reduced power and a number of additional penalties to your base class.

That said, I'm definitely not chasing another X-class/mage power spike setup, and power absolutely isn't everything: and it's absolutely not what I'm looking for in this mod. RP flavour is king for me; I'm simply looking to get a better understanding the playstyle, balance and opportunities this mod is looking to provide, while trying to reassure myself that Psionics as they are comfortably offer enough usefulness to offset the penalties required to obtain them.

There's a very strong chance that in reading patch notes and discussions alone I've been missing something that'll only become clear in practice. As I've said previously, I'm still a way off of being in a position to actually try this for myself. So, if I've completely missed the point, feel free to tell me to jog on!

I'd also love to hear from somebody who's actively using this mod in a play through to share their experiences and thoughts on how much these Psionic classes bring to a party vs. any of the alternatives. Likewise, I'd love to hear more of your own IG experiences and thoughts with this mod so far @subtledoctor. 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Psyrista

[Guest Guest]

Subtledoctor, that post is useful. Thank you. Psyrista shared some of my queries.

 

I also got another question - I read about the 5% wild talent and don't understand what is it for. Are you supposed to quick save quick load to be in that 5 percent  ? I don't enjoy randomness in stuff very much

[subtledoctor]

Like I say, fairly recently the psionicist was a pure-class thief.  So it was very much designed around that.  I've been playing with Nalia as a psionicist a but these last few days, and she is definitely less powerful than Nalia the mage.  She can't put up Stoneskin and Spell Deflection and launch explosions with impunity.  But compared to a pure thief?  A pure thief, in general, will be you archer, standing in the back line and chipping away at the defenses of enemies.  The Psionicist is also that - Nalia was firing a crossbow for a fair portion of the Harper Hold fight.  But she could also intervene as needed in trouble spots:

• softening up a troublesome enemy with Ego Whip (which has a Doom effect) before Keto fired a Hold Person
• multiplying damage with Psychic Combustion if enemies bunched up around my tank
• taking an enemy out of the equation for a bit with Id Insinuation (like Spook)

She doesn't have many sciences yet so she wasn't bringing the heavier firepower.  I feel like using a points-based system instead of memorization slots was very handy (so every power is available all the time), especially given that, since you can dip into your health, even running out of points doesn't stop you from using your powers if needed. And not having to worry about the 'one spell per round' rule meant she could intervene at any time, as needed, without worrying about a six-second clock.

My situation was, basically, I had a 5-person party who could tackle any given fight, and I picked up Nalia in advance of doing her Keep quest.  So she wasn't necessary by any stretch.  But she was helpful, and it was enjoyable using the new mechanics.  Playing a main-character psionicist would be a real test. 

I hear you about the ranger/psion vs. fighter/psion.  Since this was originally conceived as a thief kit, some of the abilities don't even really help the fighter/psion: e.g. Camouflage increases your stealth and adds to your backstab multiplier.  (Though, I guess with a Potion of Invisibility that could actually be quite useful for a fighter, if using a backstab-capable weapon.)  The ranger/psion was an afterthought only added because it become a possible combination once I move the mechanics to the cleric class.  But yeah it has a lot of synergies and works quite well.  I suppose I will remove the armor restrictions from the fighter/psion.

Also btw I just updated it to v0.9.12, which revamps the way psionic abilities escape the one-spell-per-round rule.  Now mage/psions can benefit from it to this extent: they can cast a mage spell less than six seconds after using a psionic power, but they cannot use psionic powers or cast spells within 6 seconds of casting a mage spell.  Basically magic clouds your aura for both purposes, but using psionics does not.

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

I read about the 5% wild talent and don't understand what is it for. Are you supposed to quick save quick load to be in that 5 percent  ? I don't enjoy randomness in stuff very much

D&D is a game based on dice rolls.  Basically this means that 5% of the party-joinable characters can win the genetic lottery and be a wild talent.  You can save-scum to get this for Charname... but, with a 1-in-20 shot, boy do I not recommend that.  Just play normally.  If you don't want to play a psionic kit, then play some other kit.  Every once in a rare while, your non-psionic kit will have a little bonus. 

If you want everybody to always get a psionic power, then install the "Dark Sun Mode" component, which bumps that 5% chance to 100%.  If you don't want everyone to be psionic, but you do 100% want a wild power for your Charname, you ahve two options:

1. The annoying option is, install Dark Sun Mode at the very end of your mod order, then roll your character, then save & quit the game and uninstall Dark Sun Mode.
2. The better-integrated option is, play a character that gets feats from the Might & Guile feat system.  If WtP is installed before MnG, there will be feat that makes you a wild talent.

[Psyrista]

@subtledoctor Thanks for indulging my curiosity with a taste of your IG experiences with the mod!

V. interesting to hear how Nalia performs in practice. On your suggestion that a MC psionist would be a 'test', I'll continue with my Plan A of trying to work a Psypher somewhere into the party on my next playthrough. The fact that so many elements seem to synergize well - especially with some of Might & Guile's base class tweaks factored in - are making me hopeful that, in theory, it'll play almost like a more broadly versatile Stalker... equal in combat effectiveness, with some fun casting options to supplement it.

(If it's not obvious by this point, I'm enamoured with the idea of having a sneaky, stabby, fantasy Jedi.) 

A random thought that I figured I'd ask while here. While I have no idea of the logistics involved in making it work, how feasible would a Psion/Druid be?

Obviously this would be 'druid' in name only, but would there perhaps be some way to adjust the Ranger side of the multiclass to take advantage of the old quirk that allowed Cleric/Ranger access to all druid spells? And, if that were feasible (without requiring a ton of work for potentially limited payoff, and some of the technical frustrations you've mentioned before in relation to Mage/Scion), would there be any way to do this without impacting the Psypher? I'm not sure how deep the coding for the "All druid spells" glitch ran and whether you're able to alter it in a way that doesn't impact other kits.

Just thinking out loud. Curious more than anything!

[subtledoctor]

58 minutes ago, Psyrista said:

how feasible would a Psion/Druid be?

Rather unfeasible.  Would have to put the psion half in the mage class, to free up the divine spellbook; this would necessitate creating a duplicate of the entire psionics system and maintaining them in parallel.  Then of course, there are still no druid/mages, so it would also have to completely replicate the Faiths & Powers multiclass druids system as well.  Could all that be done?  Sure, the game engine could support such a system and Weidu could create it.  But the amount of work involved would be substantial, and it would have lots of side-effects beyond the scope of the mod.

Also, keep in mind: I keep saying "ranger/psions" just so it is easy for people to keep the kits straight.  But in concept, the Psypher is not really a ranger multiclass.  Notably, a Psypher cannot cast ranger spells at all.  (I think the Charm Animal ability is still there, but that's a bug, I need to remove it.)  It is really just meant to be a psionicist who is good at fighting and scouting.

[Psyrista]

57 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

 Could all that be done?  Sure, the game engine could support such a system and Weidu could create it.  But the amount of work involved would be substantial, and it would have lots of side-effects beyond the scope of the mod.

That’s fair. I did have a feeling it’d be a substantial undertaking, and probably not worth the effort considering the potential results. Still, can’t hurt to speculate!

Understood on the multi class front too. It’s easy to keep using “ranger/psion” as a simple way of defining the kit when focusing on the details, and so equally easy to lose sight of the bigger picture.

As long as it can mess people up with its mind, that’s all I care about!

[Endarire]

May we get an option to choose the % of people who get wild talents beyond 0/5/100?

[Caedwyr]

I just installed this and it appears the Readme is a little out of date with regard to the components.  What I got

Quote

    Will to Power v0.9.13 https://github.com/UnearthedArcana/Will_to_Power/releases
        a. Add the Psionicist (thief kit)
        b. Add the Soulblade (fighter kit)
        c. Add the Psypher (Ranger Kit)
        d. Add the Cerebremancer (Mage kit)
        e. Dark Sun Mode: Everyone is a wild talent
        f. Allow Multiclass Clerics to Use More Weapons

 

[subtledoctor]

On 7/12/2020 at 1:34 PM, Caedwyr said:

the Readme is a little out of date

So it is, so it is.  Need to add mention of the psion/mage kit and the Dark Sun Mode option.

Meantime, I'm playing right now with Nalia as a Psionicist, and I have to say I am quite enjoying it.  She is focused on Telekinesis and Clairsentience, with an added smattering of low-level Telepathy.  She is quite useful!  Sadly she will be leaving my party soon, so make way for another thief.  But then I'll pick up Valygar as a Psypher, maybe focusing on Biokinesis and Telepathy (maybe).  Then I'll see more of the mod.

[Caedwyr]

I'm curious if you've seen any buggy behaviour with the aTweak fiend component or other major bugginess in your playthrough so far?

[subtledoctor]

9 hours ago, Caedwyr said:

I'm curious if you've seen any buggy behaviour with the aTweak fiend component or other major bugginess in your playthrough so far?

Still haven’t seen any fiends yet. I’m only ~12th level. I have yet to do the Planar Prison, Planar Sphere, Windspear Hills, Trademeet, Saerileth’s Ticket to Sigil, Fishing For Trouble, or Innershade/ToDG/White Queen. Not to mention Trials of the Luremaster... maybe I’ll leave that one ‘til after Spellhold?

But those quests are on my radar, will probably be done in the upcoming days/weeks. I imagine Tolgerias, Lavok, Conster, and the Umar Witch might summons some fiends against me. 

[Caedwyr]

Massive post summarizing issues identified in my testing.

Spoiler

1.  Artisan's Kitpack version of the berserker does not get the check for wild talent innate.
2. Multiclass kits show as having multiple charges of "check for wild talent" innates.  Harmless effect, as all charges go away when the ability gets used. Minor cosmetic issue that isn't worth spending a lot of effort working around for something that disappears about 10s into a new game.

I will continue to update this post as I continue my testing.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Caedwyr