What's the reason mage have planetars?

[polytope]

11 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

the premise underlying your point is that good mages should summon a planetar in the first place. As if it’s a foregone conclusion that that is reasonable. But it is not reasonable

No?

21 hours ago, polytope said:

But yes, the planetar was power creep though, like most high level abilities intended to make character progression beyond 20th level more interesting

 

[jmerry]

There are several issues all getting tangled up together here. Trying to disentangle them some...

Under the standard paradigm, mages get spells added to their spellbooks for their HLAs. One of these is a powerful summoning spell. That part, at least, makes sense; it's a solid niche to fill.

Is that summon too powerful? That depends on how much of a power fantasy you want from the game - but it's definitely way up there. Vorpal attacks, lots of powerful spells ... when SCS opens up HLAs for enemies, this is the one spell that overshadows everything else as a scary threat.

Should that summon be a celestial? That part doesn't make much sense. After all, celestials follow gods; why would they throw in with a mage?

On the difference between good and evil versions - it's pretty small. Different models, which are slightly more than a palette swap. Different general types and races (GIANTHUMANOID/PLANATAR vs MONSTER/DARKPLANATAR). Different alignments. Combat stats are identical. The good version gets Holy Word to the evil version's Unholy Word. The only real asymmetry is that the good version gets Remove Curse to the evil version's nothing - and I think that's just an oversight.

Edited November 27, 2022 by jmerry

[polytope]

1 hour ago, jmerry said:

There are several issues all getting tangled up together here. Trying to disentangle them some...

Under the standard paradigm, mages get spells added to their spellbooks for their HLAs. One of these is a powerful summoning spell. That part, at least, makes sense; it's a solid niche to fill.

Yes, the topic is meandering, but the point that mages get a more powerful celestial summon through a 9th level spell than clerics do through a 7th level spell seems to be the crux; now, this makes complete sense in terms of relative game balance between priests and mages (if not overall balance in the campaign) being that mages get fewer spells of the highest level, and unlike clerics cannot fight competently without spells, although it is weird in relation to the fictional cosmology of the setting, and there is also the secondary issue that evil mages get a very closely matched dark clone of the planetar, in order to not miss out on such a powerful summon.

1 hour ago, jmerry said:

Should that summon be a celestial? That part doesn't make much sense. After all, celestials follow gods; why would they throw in with a mage?

A Gate spell should be able to bring one from the upper planes, whether cast by a wizard or priest, I have found a reference (Isle of the Ape) to planetars working with Tenser, so why not, if it's on a mission important to the cause of good? Unlike in some other games, there's no implication that in the FR setting arcane magic is inherently unholy and anathema to the gods...

However, gated creatures unlike summoned ones are not supposed to be under the control of the caster!

1 hour ago, jmerry said:

On the difference between good and evil versions - it's pretty small. Different models, which are slightly more than a palette swap. Different general types and races (GIANTHUMANOID/PLANATAR vs MONSTER/DARKPLANATAR). Different alignments. Combat stats are identical. The good version gets Holy Word to the evil version's Holy Word. The only real asymmetry is that the good version gets Remove Curse to the evil version's nothing - and I think that's just an oversight.

Unholy Word won't affect neutral spellcasters (another oversight, imo), thus making the evil version a bit less useful, yes, since enemy casters are usually neutral or evil (although they can still cast Insect Plague for spell disruption of mages who are under weapon protection spells). Remove Curse is another reversible spell in PnP, but since there's no Bestow Curse in game fallen planetars should possibly get Greater Malison (same spell level and pretty close conceptually).

1 hour ago, jmerry said:

Is that summon too powerful? That depends on how much of a power fantasy you want from the game - but it's definitely way up there. Vorpal attacks, lots of powerful spells ... when SCS opens up HLAs for enemies, this is the one spell that overshadows everything else as a scary threat.

It's a twofold problem with both enemies having any chance against one (most in SoA don't have weapons that could harm a planetar, and it's available early if playing solo or with a small party) and the party also encountering them early and unprepared with this SCS component.

Incidentally, the suggested summons for 9th level arcane monster summoning are quite varied and also a bit weaksauce (even considering the degree to which some creatures were nerfed or simplified in their abilities in game). Things like:

• One stone golem, remorhaz or 12-headed hydra
• Two behir, ettins, flesh golems, mummies, shambling mounds or umber hulks

The 8th level monster summoning would call up to 3 ogre mages, salamanders, wraiths etc. The fact that it can summon "created" things like golems or undead is stranger still.

Edited November 27, 2022 by polytope

[Endarire]

BioWare added their house rules to the game.  They're the GMs/DMs.  That's why.

[Thacobell]

10 hours ago, polytope said:

No reason it couldn't be done, but I see why the original developer's didn't: Any conceivable and recognizably statistically different demon summoned by evil mages is either stronger or weaker than a planetar and thus contributes to mechanical and not merely stylistic/roleplaying differences between the party with good rather than evil aligned mages. Now, if the demon was exactly equal in abilities... might as well just stick with the fallen planetar?

Because giving mages planetars in the first place makes no sense. A demon or some other outsider would make far more sense.

[subtledoctor]

9 hours ago, Endarire said:

BioWare added their house rules to the game.  They're the GMs/DMs.  That's why.

Disagree. If this was Dragon Age or PoE or whatever, then it would be perfectly fine for their world-building to include a general thing that high-level mages could summone aasimon for aid. Even only a single kind of aasimon - it’s honestly super weird that planetars are the only kind if aasimon summonable by mages, but if this was Bioware’s world that would be perfectly explainable. Maybe planetars have an affinity for arcane magic (even though they are clerics?). Whatever. 

But this is not Bioware's world. They spent good money to license a particular campaign setting, with a vast literature describing it and literally a published set of rules for how things work there. Bioware took pains to stay true to those rules in many areas, but in a few cases they deviated rather badly, and in cases like this one it really would not have taken much effort to do it better. The fact that the game involves a bunch of house rules doesn’t mean the devs shouldn’t be criticized when criticism is warranted. Some house rules are just bad. 

[Jarno Mikkola]

Why Planetar. It fills in the Mage's lack of ability to cast cleric spells. Or be a Paladin.
I personally would cripple this completely as a feature, as it defeats the power balance completely... as it makes no sense to give your level 20 mage a level 25+ monster that can single handidly take everything that is thrown at it... as the protagonist then becomes a sidekick. But that's just me. I have earlier told that I hate all the summons the game has ... for a few reasons. But mostly; too many hitpoints for the effect. But also kinda the summon limit... ... that is, player only. Which gives us the clear:
"They knew it wasn't balanced"
"Yep", -vibe.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Jarno Mikkola

[polytope]

13 hours ago, Thacobell said:

Because giving mages planetars in the first place makes no sense. A demon or some other outsider would make far more sense.

Not for a lawful or good aligned mage, makes no sense at all RP-wise for them to unleash a demon in the physical world (even Animate Dead is questionable for good), and also not consistent with lore (or BG2 prior to ToB) to be able to  completely control and direct a gated rather than summoned entity, which applies equally to a celestial or a fiend brought through a Gate.

Also, this thread is turning into posters just repeating their initial claims, like a certain one on what Breach should remove...

1 hour ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Why Planetar. It fills in the Mage's lack of ability to cast cleric spells. Or be a Paladin.
I personally would cripple this completely as a feature, as it defeats the power balance completely... as it makes no sense to give your level 20 mage a level 25+ monster that can single handidly take everything that is thrown at it... as the protagonist them becomes a sidekick.

It did create an arms race, with almost every enemy grouping in ToB needing +3 weapons, and it's not a once per day summon either even though you're only allowed one at a time, thus if enemies take down the first planetar, another can be called immediately.

[subtledoctor]

10 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

I personally would cripple this completely as a feature, as it defeats the power balance completely... as it makes no sense to give your level 20 mage a level 25+ monster that can single handidly take everything that is thrown at it

In my last game I left them mostly as-is, but switched out their super-vorpal sword for something less powerful. It went a long way toward making them less powerful while still being better than lower-level summons. 

[Thacobell]

11 hours ago, polytope said:

Not for a lawful or good aligned mage, makes no sense at all RP-wise for them to unleash a demon in the physical world (even Animate Dead is questionable for good), and also not consistent with lore (or BG2 prior to ToB) to be able to  completely control and direct a gated rather than summoned entity, which applies equally to a celestial or a fiend brought through a Gate.

Care to explain why exactly, you think it makes sense for a cleric/divine being (and servant of the gods) to be summoned by arcane energies?

[Guest Aasimon]

Planetars do come to aid high level mortals, it's a canon thing, so a good call from Bioware. Fallen Planetars doing the same isn't such a stretch, and have the significant advantage of not needing extra development resources.

It seems less realistic that random mages in SCS also get Planetars though. Only some of them if what they are doing is of interest to the Planetar's god. In the unmodded game, only the party and Amelyssan are able to catch Planetar/Solar attention.

[subtledoctor]

21 minutes ago, Guest Aasimon said:

Planetars do come to aid high level mortals, it's a canon thing, so a good call from Bioware

Not just for casting a spell, though - planetars have agency and help where and when they choose. If Bioware set up a scripted encounter where a planetar helps you, that would be interesting. If you could summon one planetar, with a name and personality, who was bound to you in some way and that’s why you could get repeated help - something to do, perhaps, with a budding divinity? I mean, this is really low fruit. 

But making it a dimple upgrade to the Monster Summoning spells is stupid. Restricting it solely to mages is stupid. 

Sigh. Someone needs to make a “HLA Revisions” mod. I mean HLAs came to the game with ToB, and ToB is all about taking control of your divine essence. It would be cool to tie HLAs more directly into the narrative. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Angel]

Summoning planetars at will is definitely not canon.  There is no epic spell I know of that comes remotely close to that.  There is some canon for summoning devas, but in 2e at least such spells are very rare and hard to come by (e.g. the elven high magic spell Celestial Army).  Then again, BG takes *a lot* of liberty with spells that are rare or unique in canon.  Fixing all that would be nearly impossible and would take away many things that players love, like the various spell triggers (which are in canon unique to The Symbul).

Note also that ToB makes devas and planetars substantially more powerful than in P&P, the planetar's HD is almost doubled and the deva's is more than tripled.

As for revising them, mm that would be a tall order.  While I agree that summon spells in BG1 were overpowered, I have never been a big fan of how much they were nerved in BG2.  I like summoning spells.   I have an ongoing revision in my Spell Pack mod, but it's still a piece of work.  Off of the top of my head I would say tone down devas and planetars a bit and let them answer a Gate spell for good characters.  I never understood why a good mage would want to open a gate to Baator or The Abyss instead of Mount Celestia or Elysium.  Then replace the Summon Deva and Summon Planetar spells with more appropriate and still powerful beings like a noble efreet (for evil) or djinn (for good).  But frankly, I'd really have to think on this one.

[Guest Aasimon]

@Subtledoctor: It's not hard to imagine the Bhaalspawn getting support from a Planetar and being able to call for aid. It's not like the game shows everything, for example the relationship between high level priests and their god is completely abstracted away.

I agree that having the unlocking of the HLA trigger a scripted encounter with the Planetar would be neat, though pretty facultative to the overall game quality.

Planetars aren't summoned, they come of their own will (or their god's) after being called for help by someone they took an interest in. This is even reflected in gameplay as you can't unsummon a Planetar with e.g. Death Spell. If it's interested in the Bhaalspawn's impact on the huge events unfolding, enough that it would enter the Prime material plane to offer succor, it seems likely that it'd consider answering more than once

 

@Angel: A Planetar is not summoned, it's called, and comes through a celestial gate of its own will. Turns out it will always agree to help, but it's not hard to imagine why given the immense stakes.

[Angel]

Mm, I'm starting to get a few ideas.  Frankly, I actually really like the idea of a (fallen) planetar forming a pact for divine assistance with the Bhaalspawn.

Not saying that I am going to to this, but I would suggest the following:

• Change the various demon summoning spells to spells that summon creatures corresponding to the caster's alignment.
• Make an innate Summon (Dark) Planetar for the protagonist, granted upon first reaching the pocket plane.  Maybe gain one or two additional uses as challenges are completed.
• Change the Summon (Dark) Planetar wizard HLA to something more appropriate, like a noble djinni/efreeti.
• Keep the cleric and paladin Summon (Fallen) Deva, as there are some cannon spells that call upon devas.  Maybe tone down the deva a bit.
• While at it, change "Summon" to "Call" as I agree, devas and planetars are called, not summoned.