Non-magic HLAs should not be removable by antimagic spells and effects

[RoyalProtector]

Apologies if this has been addressed already. But I think things like "resist magic", "hardiness", "assassination", "avoid death" and others should probably not be affected at all about those things. After all, those things are supposed to be just an exercise of willpower or skill. Nothing magical.

I'm not sure if this can be considered a bug or not. Thoughts?

[jmerry]

Here's the previous thread on this topic: https://www.gibberlings3.net/forums/topic/36132-hardiness-targeted-by-breach/#comments

Six pages of comments, no consensus reached.

Edited April 15, 2023 by jmerry

[polytope]

I think we at least reached a consensus regarding the Assasination HLA, in that it should not be considered a combat protection for the purpose of sectype removal, since the general trend among other offensive warrior and thief HLAs (Whirlwind, Deathblow and the Power Attack->Critical Strike->Smite trio) is to be typeless and schoolless, with the same being true of offensive melee-related special abilities of kits (assassin & blackguard's Poison Weapon, blade's Offensive Spin, kensai's Kai etc.).

18 hours ago, RoyalProtector said:

After all, those things are supposed to be just an exercise of willpower or skill. Nothing magical.

Note that no warrior or rogue HLA can be dispelled, only removed by Breach, whether or not you think that should be the case comes down to the interpretation of what a Breach spell actually does: Detect Invisibility spell reveals both creatures invisible due to an illusion and thieves/rangers non-magically hiding in shadows. Lower Resistance spell can reduce the magic resistance of a monk or wizard slayer, even though that's neither from a spell nor supernatural ability but a result of their training.

Edited April 16, 2023 by polytope

[RoyalProtector]

Yeah, I would concede that that magic resistance and detect invisibility cases are a bit more tricky, and probably ambiguous (and thus 'compromise' is the only thing you can get). However! I think they should not be affected by Dispel Magic for example (i don't know if they are).

Changing Assassination makes sense to me too. But other cases such as Evasion seem pretty clear to me too, so I'm not sure why there's consensus only with that one. Ah well. It can always be put in a tweak mod, so it's up to preference.

Edited April 17, 2023 by RoyalProtector

[morpheus562]

On 4/15/2023 at 8:41 PM, polytope said:

I think we at least reached a consensus regarding the Assasination HLA, in that it should not be considered a combat protection for the purpose of sectype removal, since the general trend among other offensive warrior and thief HLAs (Whirlwind, Deathblow and the Power Attack->Critical Strike->Smite trio) is to be typeless and schoolless, with the same being true of offensive melee-related special abilities of kits (assassin & blackguard's Poison Weapon, blade's Offensive Spin, kensai's Kai etc.).

Note that no warrior or rogue HLA can be dispelled, only removed by Breach, whether or not you think that should be the case comes down to the interpretation of what a Breach spell actually does: Detect Invisibility spell reveals both creatures invisible due to an illusion and thieves/rangers non-magically hiding in shadows. Lower Resistance spell can reduce the magic resistance of a monk or wizard slayer, even though that's neither from a spell nor supernatural ability but a result of their training.

This consensus was not reached for Assassination. Either it is dispellable like the other items mentioned, or it was intentional like the other items mentioned. You are welcome to rehash in the main thread, but consensus was not reached.

Edited April 17, 2023 by morpheus562

[morpheus562]

1 hour ago, RoyalProtector said:

Yeah, I would concede that that magic resistance and detect invisibility cases are a bit more tricky, and probably ambiguous (and thus 'compromise' is the only thing you can get). However! I think they should not be affected by Dispel Magic for example (i don't know if they are).

Changing Assassination makes sense to me too. But other cases such as Evasion seem pretty clear to me too, so I'm not sure why there's consensus only with that one. Ah well. It can always be put in a tweak mod, so it's up to preference.

Skills and Abilities already corrects the HLAs being dispellable.

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, morpheus562 said:

This consensus was not reached for Assassination. Either it is dispellable like the other items mentioned, or it was intentional like the other items mentioned. You are welcome to rehash in the main thread, but consensus was not reached.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I actually believe you are the only one that maintained that particular position. Even subtledoctor said that Assassination should be corrected given that there is absolutely no mechanical basis of any kind for it to be considered a combat protection, unlike the others - even though he still agreed with you that those others should be changed as well. Let's not cut off our noses, shall we?

Edited April 17, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[morpheus562]

16 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I actually believe you are the only one that maintained that particular position. Even subtledoctor said that Assassination should be corrected given that there is absolutely no mechanical basis of any kind for it to be considered a combat protection, unlike the others - even though he still agreed with you that those others should be changed as well. Let's not cut off our noses, shall we?

I don't think it is cutting off my nose in the slightest to state consensus wasn't reached. Either it was developer intent like the other HLAs or it was a bug like the other HLAs. I do not think any fixpack change should be piecemeal with the HLAs, and they should be adjusted holistically. I agree that Assassination is a more egregious example, but it should be treated as the others.

[Bartimaeus]

Just now, morpheus562 said:

I don't think it is cutting off my nose in the slightest to state consensus wasn't reached. Either it was developer intent like the other HLAs or it was a bug like the other HLAs. I do not think any fixpack change should be piecemeal with the HLAs, and they should be adjusted holistically. I agree that Assassination is a more egregious example, but it should be treated as the others.

That's fine, just that...one person disagreeing with everyone else is probably a lot closer to consensus than you seemed to imply in your initial reply.

[morpheus562]

4 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

That's fine, just that...one person disagreeing with everyone else is probably a lot closer to consensus than you seemed to imply in your initial reply.

I don't see anything in the six pages of skimming to show there was consensus reached though. And I am what, one of four or five people actively involved in that discussion which is 20%+ of the consenting opinion being voiced? If 20%+ of a discussion is saying consensus isn't reached, that is not a marginal amount.

[subtledoctor]

I honestly don't even remember what I argued in that thread. And I'm not reading it again. I do remember two things:

1. There is no difference in how Assassination should be treated versus how Hardiness should be treated, except in subjective evaluation of whether one feels like it is in a different category than the other (so in the strictest sense Morpheus is right)
2. It doesn't fucking matter because no enemies will ever cast Breach at your warrior with Hardiness.

Point 2 is particularly persuasive IMHO. It just doesn't matter, so leave it alone and let mods address it.

[jmerry]

2 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

... so leave it alone and let mods address it.

I was wondering if I'd think of anything worth a place in version 3.1 of my tweaks. Now I have it.

[morpheus562]

16 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

I honestly don't even remember what I argued in that thread. And I'm not reading it again. I do remember two things:

1. There is no difference in how Assassination should be treated versus how Hardiness should be treated, except in subjective evaluation of whether one feels like it is in a different category than the other (so in the strictest sense Morpheus is right)
2. It doesn't fucking matter because no enemies will ever cast Breach at your warrior with Hardiness.

Point 2 is particularly persuasive IMHO. It just doesn't matter, so leave it alone and let mods address it.

Agreed. The only time a warrior with hardiness is being targeted by breach is if they are doing something else worth targeting and removing.

[morpheus562]

11 minutes ago, jmerry said:

I was wondering if I'd think of anything worth a place in version 3.1 of my tweaks. Now I have it.

I already do this in Skills and Abilities.

[jmerry]

27 minutes ago, morpheus562 said:

I already do this in Skills and Abilities.

In a component that also does other things, as part of a mod that has considerably larger overhaul ambitions. A stand-alone focused tweak is sufficiently different that I'm not bothered.