Custom NPC mod suggestions or grievances

[TotalMilk90]

I have an outline for a new npc with a small story/quest attached. Female, cleric/thief, evil, romanceable, for BG:EE and SoD only currently.
 

Im just looking for a few thoughts from people who have played or made npc mods about what types of things are generally good ideas you like to see in them, or conversely what are some common pitfalls they might fall into that may not be so obvious?

 

[moggadeet]

so these are some kind of scattered thoughts

Good:

• Responds to the story to an extent comparable to other NPCs.
• Interesting whether or not you romance them.
• An imperfect/flawed character (both narratively and mechanically). Perfect people tend to be unconvincing and flat. Similarly, a reasonable stat spread in line with most characters in BG1 is good.
• NPC quests are cool. When done well they offer a nice change of pace: sure, it's charname's story, but by the time the quest rolls around, the player should feel like this new character has helped them enough that they genuinely want to do them a favor - or at least like they want to learn more about this person. They're also a great opportunity to expand on the character's background and history, maybe flesh out existing areas of the game.
• Ideally the character's arc should help to establish a feeling of trust. Imo this is particularly important for characters who may not share the player's alignment. Why are they here? Can the player count on them? If not, why keep them around at all?
• Believable reactions from other characters. Even without the BG1NPC project, BG1's compliment/insult/conflict system does a remarkable amount to characterize its companions. Something as simple as a unique line when another character dies can make a character that much more convincing.
• Unique kits or underrepresented classes are certainly a plus. I'm assuming your character is a multi-class; given that BG1 has Tiax and SoD has Glint, I'd ask what makes her stand out. This isn't a criticism, mind. I don't think that an NPC has to be mechanically unique to be good, but custom kits like Sirene's Martyr paladin kit are a fantastic way to reinforce who they are on a mechanical level.

Bad:

• Seems to take over the story by interjecting constantly. Additional black mark: interjects into other characters' banters.
• "Wins" every banter. At high levels this becomes a sort of reality-warping thing where the new character distorts the world around them so that they are always the center of attention.
• Everyone likes them. A well-written character is going to have conflicts of some sort - maybe not extreme ones, but they're not going to get along with everyone.
• Overly powerful/trivializes game balance. I don't think this is a thing people really do anymore in NPC mods, but it bears mentioning.

And as a neutral aside: I really appreciate when modders write romanceable NPCs without race/gender restrictions. I understand that it might not be in line with the character you have in mind, and I think that prerequisites for a romance are totally understandable - Shar-Teel wouldn't be interested in a weakling, and Ajantis wouldn't be interested in someone evil. It's specifically race and gender romance reqs that I personally find somewhat irritating at times, though of course any character should be expected to have preferences.

[TotalMilk90]

 

 

Gratitude for the detailed response! These are all great ideas and exactly the kind of helpful insight I was looking for.

4 hours ago, moggadeet said:

An imperfect/flawed character (both narratively and mechanically). Perfect people tend to be unconvincing and flat.

Interesting point. Not something I originally thought about, but now I totally agree. Being flawed can give them a chance to grow and mature as the story progresses which could add more depth and relatability to the character. I will be keeping this in mind when I get more into it.

 

4 hours ago, moggadeet said:

Unique kits or underrepresented classes are certainly a plus.

Cool. I love new kits/spells/abilities and all that as long as they have a realistic progression. If I can do it right, I plan on making a kit for thief/cleric multi class involving Mask.

 

4 hours ago, moggadeet said:

Everyone likes them. A well-written character is going to have conflicts of some sort - maybe not extreme ones, but they're not going to get along with everyone.

This one is giving me some fun ideas. Looking at you Ajantis. (sorry jastey) 

 

4 hours ago, moggadeet said:

It's specifically race and gender romance reqs that I personally find somewhat irritating at times, though of course any character should be expected to have preferences.

Well said and I agree with both points. 

 

Again, thanks a lot for taking the time to share these. It's all great advice that I'll be thinking of along the way.

[jastey]

18 minutes ago, TotalMilk90 said:

Looking at you Ajantis. (sorry jastey)

hehe

[jastey]

moggadeed already raised very valid points. Only thing coming to my mind is that I expect the NPC to have a believable back story. What I mean with that: if you want your NPC to be a tiefling with a tail and horns that nearly make their head trip, then please do not make them random country girl/boy living with their tiefling parents having a bakery. - Not that a tiefling family couldn't live in a normal town and have a bakery. But - why would you chose this race and appearance for the NPC then? - If it makes sense.

On the same time, spare too exotic / special backgrounds. When the modding scene was younger, there were so many NPC concepts that were so overdone and MarySueish - with glowing eyes, half-elf half-tiefling half-dragon, being orphaned as a kid because their village was destroyed by [insert monsters here], then raised somewhere by [insert exotic creature race here]... Domi wrote a very good "Don'ts in NPC Design" post ages ago, but I'm afraid it probably won't come up in search any more (if it's still present the forum software probably archived it).

What I personally do not like is personal items, like special armor only usable by this NPC, worst unremovable. Even if the personal gear is removable, it still feels forced. One item - ok, but only if there is a really, really good story behind it. As a creator one might think that special personal items make the NPC more interesting, for me it's the contrary, actually. I want to be able to equip them with good items of my own choosing, without being hindered by unremovable items or items with their name tag on them.

I personally like to talk with the NPCs. Having dialogues that are intriguing, tell me things about them. (Not too philosophical, though, those bore me easily). A friendship path (if no romance is available) is a must . I love Finch to pieces but I won't take her along again after I realized there is zero interaction with the PC.

For me, I like it if NPCs have a moment of failure. Let them fall on their nose, being stubborn in an argument with another NPC, "lose" a banter with another NPC. It makes them lovable.

My personal taste: some drama is good. Inserting drama for drama's sake is to be avoided. This is a fantasy world with magic and resurrection. You don't have to add a lover that is slowly dying and is permadead 10 minutes before your NPCs comes with the cure. This is not the kind of story I want to see in a fantasy game.

If designing the dialogues, try to give reply options for different RP and alignment / character choices. Do not tell the Player how their PC is feeling. Never do that. Give the player the reply choices to decide what their PC is feeling and how they are reacting.

Do not let your NPC be offended* just because the PC (Player) clicked one wrong reply option. Sometimes, it's just that the player didn't get where the reply option goes to. Plus, people reacting like that are too narrow minded to have them in a fantasy game.

And of course I'll advertise my SoD NPC Modding Tutorials here, including a mod package that can be taken as a template (only for SoD content, needs slight adjustment for a BG1+SoD NPC).

Making an NPC mod is much, much more work than it seems - but it is also great fun to write a character to your liking.

A general rule of advice: for quest and dialogue design, make sure you fall back to certain points where *all* paths will lead to. Giving choices how to solve a quest is great - but at some point you need to make sure you know where the player is, or writing all possible paths will be endless work - and debugging will become a nightmare.

 

*offended is ok, of course, but not stomping off in anger / kill the romance etc.

 

[jastey]

I have one more: communicate to the player how their fare with the NPC. What i mean is, I've seen romance concepts where one reply option which was not obvious would kill the romance, which the NPC would not address. Leaving players wonder 3+ hours later into the game what happened.

[Isewein]

Personally, I really appreciate content beyond the good old romance. Friendship, rivalry, Realmslore conversations etc. In Baldur's Gate specifically, we have such a plethora of well-written characters available now that if I am to try out a new one at all, they must needs have some connection to the story of the game, be that through their own stake in the matter of the Iron / Bhaalspawn crisis or at least strong ties to some of the locations or characters of the Saga.

[mickabouille]

5 hours ago, jastey said:

MarySueish

Thanks Jastey, you just nerd-sniped me. Didn't know this (Mary Sue character) and found myself reading about all variants

 

[mickabouille]

I think having some NPC-specific quest is a must.

I also think not having the NPC always be present at all points of the quest is also better. You can have a requirement for a certain need of trust for example to even start the quest and may need the presence of the NPC  to end it, but I find it strange if some intermediate steps can't happen just because someone in not there.

(Of course, you'll have as many contradictory preferences as you get responses )

[Isewein]

PS in view of the occasion: The Corwin mod which was just released seems to fit my criteria above perfectly and it's one of the very few recent NPC mods I think I am actually likely to give a try in the near future. Skitia's NPCs on the other hand seem wonderfully written and fleshed out, but they seem to be designed to be taken as a whole party, and I just cannot imagine that they fit the story of the Trilogy as well as Jaheira, Khalid, Viconia etc., so I doubt I'll ever be interested in playing them properly, alas.

[moggadeet]

for anyone who's not heard of the Mary-Sue character before, there's a quite lengthy article on the character type.

and I definitely want to echo the importance of clarity! Even with a sneaky character who might not always be totally honest with the PC, it saves a lot of aggravation if players know where they stand. Stealth romance/friendship breaks that aren't indicated as such are pretty irritating.

Oh yeah, I also wanted to mention - developed NPC/NPC relationships are fun too! Not necessarily NPC/NPC romances (though those can be interesting too) but more substantial friendships between characters, along the lines of Minsc and Keldorn (or Edwin and Alora in BG1). Banters don't need to be symmetrical. in the process of writing, you may find that your character has a lot to say towards some characters, and very little towards others. Maybe your character gets along with Tiax (gods forbid) and they chat up a storm, but she might not have very much to say to Kivan. It's neat when a mod encourages players to use companions they might not otherwise recruit, too - I think the fan favorites tend to get a lot of attention, and others (later characters like Alora and Skie especially, mod recruitment aside) quite a bit less. So I certainly don't think it's necessary to emphasize the C-listers, but it's a nice plus in my book, and it helps with that feeling of your character really belonging to the game/the world.

And one more thing, since she's intended for both BGEE and SoD - do you intend to offer different SoD dialogue depending on whether or not she was recruited in BGEE? Extra dialogue that a lot of players might not even see is a nuisance, but dialogue that fails to account for "we have literally never met" or "We painted each other's toenails! I thought we were besties!" is pretty immersion-breaking.

[Lava]

7 hours ago, jastey said:

Not that a tiefling family couldn't live in a normal town and have a bakery. But - why would you chose this race and appearance for the NPC then?

Because tieflings may desire a normal life, too  it's not like they chose to have horns. Actually, I would love to see a mod about two tieflings struggling to open a bakery. Sounds ten times more intriguing than a 37th crafty tiefling rogue! 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Lava

[megrimlock]

If there is anyone who both could and would write a good tiefling baker NPC, it's Lava!

[TotalMilk90]

9 hours ago, jastey said:

On the same time, spare too exotic / special backgrounds.

I almost fell victim to this at first, really just because it was fun to think about , but then my better judgment kicked in.

6 hours ago, Isewein said:

they must needs have some connection to the story of the game, be that through their own stake in the matter of the Iron / Bhaalspawn crisis

That would be nice, especially concerning the iron crisis.

5 hours ago, mickabouille said:

(Of course, you'll have as many contradictory preferences as you get responses )

I really like all the different perspectives, I’ve actually never played an npc mod before but I think I’m going to try out a few to get a feel for them play wise 

 

3 hours ago, Lava said:

I would love to see a mod about two tieflings struggling to open a bakery

Now it needs to happen 

[moggadeet]

If you've never played an NPC mod before, I'd recommend trying out some of the popular ones as well as some of the more polarizing ones (or at least reading bits of their dialogue, just to get a sense for WHY they're so polarizing). I think people can differ pretty widely on what constitutes a "good" character, because so much of that is really subjective, but a lot of the "DON'T DO THIS EVER" rules come from bad experiences and I think they can be educational, if not necessarily fun.

Characters like Rhaella's Isra, the Artisan's Sirene, or Skitia's Recorder seem to be pretty popular overall, and imo they're about what players tend to expect from a mod NPC content-wise (though Isra doesn't have any SoD content). All of them have banters and friendship paths, and Sirene and Recorder have custom kits and unique (though not overpowered) gear. Sirene's sort of an interesting case because, well, she is a tiefling, but she's so understanding and empathetic towards the PC (especially once the big reveal happens) that she doesn't feel like she's trying to steal the show. So you can write compelling, relatable characters who are "special/exotic," you just need to be careful how you handle it.

...that said, writing a character who's more ordinary is definitely easier. Finch is a bit content-lite by current standards, like jastey mentioned, but she's just an ordinary geeky gnome cleric who loves books, and imo it makes her very likeable.