Custom NPC mod suggestions or grievances

[TotalMilk90]

Cool thanks for the recommendations! I’ll take a look through those, and maybe even play some through and see what I can learn 

[jastey]

12 hours ago, Lava said:

Because tieflings may desire a normal life, too  it's not like they chose to have horns. Actually, I would love to see a mod about two tieflings struggling to open a bakery. Sounds ten times more intriguing than a 37th crafty tiefling rogue! 

ok, I agree to that. But you'd expect them to struggle, to have a back story how they got there - or are they there in 4th generation and assuming they have a back story is racist?

I'd conclude that I chose a bad example.

Maybe if I put it like this: I expect the back story of the NPC to play a role. Give your NPC STR 13 and I expect this to show, and not getting a "NPCname picks the PC up and carries her to the bedroll" for my 18 STR 16 CON fighter NPC wearing plate mail. Give your NPC big horns - fine, but do not pretend that they are a normal human for the rest of the mod. I expect reactions from some game characters and at least one dialogue where they struggle with putting on a helmet. If it makes sense.

[jastey]

One word of advice coming from experience about waving your NPC's story into game related events / stories. It can become a real PITA to add your NPC into exisitng game content. It's much easier to have them float along side it. What I mean:

-Brage is a game character and has lived in Nashkel as the commander. He comes from Amn. I added interjections in Nashkel to every man and his dog, and I fear I'll have to add some sort of connections in Athkatla, too.

-Brandock is mage from Amn. He trained with the Coweld Wizards. For BGII, that means I have to tie him in for the meetings with the Cowled Wizards there; the Sphere quest / mage stronghold, and whatnot, Phew.

-Ajantis was Keldorn's squire. So I had to consider that when writing the BGII mod: he knows the order and they know him, he has a backstory with Keldorn that should show in their interactions, etc.

It makes an NPC (more) interesting, but it also makes it more complicated to insert them seemlessly. EDIT: also from a technical POV. If you are unexperienced with dialogue writing and scripting, you need to watch out to make sure you are adding your content to existing dlgs in the most compatible way.

[TotalMilk90]

2 hours ago, jastey said:

Ajantis was Keldorn's squire.

I don’t think I ever knew this. That’s pretty cool honestly 

[TotalMilk90]

15 hours ago, moggadeet said:

And one more thing, since she's intended for both BGEE and SoD - do you intend to offer different SoD dialogue depending on whether or not she was recruited in BGEE? Extra dialogue that a lot of players might not even see is a nuisance, but dialogue that fails to account for "we have literally never met" or "We painted each other's toenails! I thought we were besties!" is pretty immersion-breaking.

Haven’t made it this far but yes that will give me something to think about.

[Lava]

2 hours ago, jastey said:

Give your NPC big horns - fine, but do not pretend that they are a normal human for the rest of the mod. I expect reactions from some game characters and at least one dialogue where they struggle with putting on a helmet. If it makes sense.

Oh, that is always hard, but characters with unusual body types / heads always feel like... well... that should be reflected somehow! My Oak-Maw for IWD has unremovable antlers in that slot. But they let him attack, dealing piercing damage twice per day or something like that. Because when you lock something, it's always good to give player something in exchange.

While I know that for years it was suggested that it's better to write "normal" characters, but weird ones also get some love. I wrote Lhannd, the human fallen ranger, but I dare to say that my Dvaradime (dwarven fighter/mage/thief looking for his husband, who got missing) [mildly unusual] got more attention, and Verr'Sza, the rakshasa evil ranger got way more spotlight. So I believe there are those who just will look for different things, some prefer more down-to-earth (Faerun?) concepts, while others prefer unusual ones.

I would suggest you write what you like most. Writing a mod takes time and energy, so if you don't like the idea, it's easy to lose motivation. If I were you, I would start with something simpler and see how much you like it. Don't try to write an overwhelming characters, with a friendship and two romance variants that depend on gender/replies, because there is a huge chance you will suffer from a burnout on your way to the release

People alwady said it, but... go and play some of the existing characters, check how different authors write, because we all have our own style when it comes to creating stuff. Check Ajantis, check Skie or Dvaradime, check Isra, Arath, Xan, Sirene... these are all by different authors. Or create your own list, just make sure it's no all by the same modder And once you check these, decide: what you want to tell? What kind of story and what you want to stress or what options you want to give BG players

What I learned when I was starting to mod is... avoid telling player what he/she does (via action texts or dialogues) because it is they who should lead.

[jastey]

I don't mean to sound like I'm defending myself, I just wanted to point this out because my posts might not make this clear:

- I wasn't arguing against weaving your NPC into the game story / locations / events. I only wanted to point out that it increases work load. I think the result can be very intriguing - if done right. And then there is other mods also tinkering with the original content you have to take into account* and you start hating yourself. (I heard that from, er, a friend.)

- I also wasn't arguing against having your NPC an "unusual" race or other features. I wanted to point out that I expect a more thorough design concept than "looks cool". @Lava your NPCs for example have a well designed back story.

 

59 minutes ago, TotalMilk90 said:

I don’t think I ever knew this. That’s pretty cool honestly

I think Ajantis tells it in his BG1 BIO. - You don't take him along very often, do you? (There is several NPCs I never had in party myself, btw.)

Also, if you have Keldorn or Anomen in party when entering the Windspear Hills the first time, they will comment on Ajantis. (Anomen's remark was cut by Lord Windspeer appearing, but I think the fixpack fixed this, and I think I meddled with the timers in my Ajantis BGII mod, too, so it would show.)

 

*This might be an own hint, actually. There is a fine line between "make use of existing game characters for your mod (as quest givers etc.) to make your mod more seemless" and "use your very own custom characters, areas, monsters to be sure no other mod changes them", because the former also comes with the risk of "f*** - mod x, y, and z make changes to this character / are using this house interior / dungeon, now I have to make this compatible". Using only custom quest givers makes the game more crowded (in a negative sense), but it *is* safer. As for dungeon or house interiors - I wrote a compatibility change to one of Ascalon's Questpack components because Artisan's mod (one of it) also uses the same house, and I just added a compatibility patch to Brandock because apparently even area locations to add a new cave are prone to be used by several mods.

[Lava]

Oh, what I wrote wasn't to argue! I think that there are just different players that like different mods / games / content I think both kinds of content can be cool. I suppose the mods I am most proud of are Dvaradime (who doesn't even include a romance and I am quite known for including romances for all sorts of players), Lhannd (the fallen ranger)... But I must say that sometimes it just feels cook to create a weird NPC, bit even unusual characters (like Oak-Maw) may include something people may understand, sympathize with... Even Verr had a bigot for a father But it doesn't have to be that. Oh, it was so fun to write Skie who is silly, but can be more serious in her own way.

You know what? I just think you should write a character that will make you proud. No matter if they are serious, brutal, or silly, because all these can be interesting and make people think.

[Bartimaeus]

My big thing with mod content (be it NPCs/characters, locations, items, spells, combat encounters, et al.) is that it should feel like it seamlessly belongs to the game world it is being inserted into. Unfortunately, it is understandably very difficult for most modders to write, make art, design characters, create/balance new items and abilities, voice act, and so on, in a style and with enough attention to detail to really make it feel like high level mimicry...and that's when modders even attempt to do so in the first place, as I feel many do not and instead just want to go off and do their own thing with no heed for whether what they make will cohesively fit into the already existing game world or not. That's their right, but it's not for me.

Whenever I've tried the EEs, I feel like a significant percent of the new content added by Beamdog fails my standards for "does this actually make sense and fit in?". The new party members are, of course, the most extreme instances of that, but even more minor stuff like a lot of the items Beamdog designed and even where they put them, too many of their boneheaded decisions* make me grind my teeth when I come across them. Anyways, I don't suggest anyone ever tries to make anything to suit my tastes, as it would almost certainly be a fool's errand.

*Mind you, BioWare had a number of pretty boneheaded decisions themselves...

Edited October 2, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[Graion Dilach]

46 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

I feel many do not and instead just want to go off and do their own thing with no heed for whether what they make will cohesively fit into the already existing game world or not. That's their right, but it's not for me.

Says the guy who did his own take of the Revision mods, which already ignored cohesion and immersion over doing their own thing. I couldn't resist pointing out the irony here.

[Thacobell]

I'll second Sirene as an excellent example of an "exotic" npc that does not overshadow charname at all. Her story even acting as a good parallel to chanrame, while making sure charname has the spotlight.
An interesting example of an npc that really flirts the Mary Sue line, but remains grounded and flawed enough to not quite get there, is Aura. Gnome with a special thief kit that worships Gond but also lived in Kozakura for awhile. Iirc, they are essential two npc ideas that got merged together. She has unique gear as well. Its an odd case of doing a lot of very "dangerous" things with your npc and risking them being mary sue attention grabbers, but I think is saved by the writing. Out of their element and on the back foot, etc. I don't know the general consensus on her, but I quite like Aura.