MAC OS weidu launcher mod_order.txt

[jastey]

@subtledoctor reffering to this install order list here.

The order is not ideal. It mixes quest mods and NPCs mods in what seems random order. UB is pretty late, there is ninde_eet in there besides ninde (what for?), amber_eet - the Roxanne filth where the authors of Amber explicitly asked to take it down.

Also, it seems all mods get installed as a whole, no splitting of components (e.g. installing of crossmod components of NPC mods at a later time).

The list needs an overhaul, this is not recommendable.

[subtledoctor]

That is... rather unhelpful 

I originally had separate lists for both BGEE and BG2EE, and then had to merge them so that it would work for EET as well, but still also work separately for each game (not to mention standalone versions of SoD which do not contain BGEE.) The way it works is, the app only displays mods that are currently in your override folder, which means only mods that are relevant to the game you are installing on. So some BG1/BG2 stuff looks jumbled, but becomes clearer when you use the app with any given set of mods in any given individual game.

The app does in fact mark a number of mods for splitting up, in cases where I have been aware of such a need. But there is not much granularity - all it can handle is .tp2 filenames, not components. So it has "Stratagems" up with the spell-adding mods and then "Stratagems" again down after all the tweaks; it is left to the user to interact with the Weidu installer and hopefully know to install the IWD spells early and the AI/encounters late. (Due to the lack of proper advisories about the need to split up mod components, I would much rather mods be broken apart into sensible install-order-friendly chunks - see e.g. everything I've done with my own mods in the last few weeks. I think it's kind of ridiculous that SCS has a spell-adding component and some class-tweaking components and various AI and encounter tweaks, and the sum total of what most players are made to understand about it is "install SCS last." But I cannot demand how other people make their stuff; I can only react to it with the blunt tools I have.)

As far as NPC mods: these have always bedeviled me. I have no earthly idea which ones need to go after which other ones; generally I think the most recent ones probably have more cross-mod content with older one (for obvious reasons) and so generally that is how I add them to the list. But that rule doesn't always hold and I don't know how to know which mods are exceptions. Some few mods have started using the .ini file feature to denote Before: and After: rules - all of my mods do -  but most quest and NPC mods do not. Even in very recent cases - Lava has been extremely prolific recently, and all of his mods contain those .ini files... but he provides zero guidance as to install order. So I kind of put them together, generally with the newer ones later, and hope for the best. Not sure what else I can do.

Because, I come at this from the perspective of a player, not somebody maintaining a mod manager. The MWL is not that - all it does is launch Weidu, once, for one mod, each time you use it. I try to put together a good install - I have made my weidu.log public repeatedly, welcoming comments and corrections. My most recent install (at that link) installs everything cleanly, and most of the NPCs appear where they are supposed to be (Valerie is an exception) and act as they are supposed to act, participating in my party and not glitching out. To me, that is a success. Am I missing out on conversations, cross-mod interjections, etc.? Maybe! I Have no idea. I cannot know what I am not seeing if I am not seeing it. Further, every NPC has a rather selective set of such content. Keto has interactions with Kelsey, but what if my party needs a bard but not a sorcerer? What if I want to include Brandock this time instead, but still want Keto to fill my bard slot? They don't talk to each other at all. So, from my perspective, I get a normal if quiet game. I don't know if it is that way because that's just how the NPCs are, or if it is that way because my install order is imperfect. And honestly, if I can get from Candlekeep to the Throne of Bhaal without any serious bugs, the fact that the game is quiet doesn't bother me much. 

It would be nice if these mods very explicitly stated, in Readme and/or .ini files, clear statements about install order. I have started including multiple paragraphs in my Readmes about compatibility, install order, resource usage, etc. And it would be nice of people who are enthusiastic about quest and NPC interactions would post about their games, say "it was great to have these two NPCs in the party because they have a lot of interaction; on the other hand these other NPCs had very little." There are sooooo many mods - how else are players to be guided?

Also: I intentionally put this up on Github where anyone can edit and submit changes to the order if they think they know better than me (and, in most cases they surely do know better than me ). And any changes made to the Github version of the document will instantly propagate out to all users of the app, with no need to re-download it. So if it seems from my reply that I am resistant to your criticism, know that I really am not. I welcome the input of people with more knowledge than me and encourage them to inject that knowledge directly into my app.

EDIT - as far as those ***_eet mods, I created this before that controversy was stirred up and I realized what Roxanne was doing. I have since added the actual mods to the list. Remember this app is not a mod manager, it does not download anything, it does not even display anything to the user that they have not already downloaded themselves. I have been vocal in my condemnation of people pushing unauthorized/altered versions of mods and always tell people not to use them if they find them. BUT... if someone already has that on their computer, should I intentionally put those in the wrong place in the list? (Any mod in your game folder that is not on the list gets displayed at the end.) Should I, in effect, actively meddle with what others do on their own computers, and hamper their ability to put together a working install? My first reaction was of course not - that seems like a real dickish move, these are vestigial nothings, harmless, and I certainly don't want to obstruct players who may not know better. But maybe my first instinct is wrong!  If you suggest that those entries being there is harmful, and I should be unhelpful to players who possess them, then I will definitely take that under consideration. I take your opinions seriously on this matter.

Edited October 13, 2023 by subtledoctor

[jastey]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

I originally had separate lists for both BGEE and BG2EE, and then had to merge them so that it would work for EET as well, but still also work separately for each game (not to mention standalone versions of SoD which do not contain BGEE.) The way it works is, the app only displays mods that are currently in your override folder, which means only mods that are relevant to the game you are installing on. So some BG1/BG2 stuff looks jumbled, but becomes clearer when you use the app with any given set of mods in any given individual game.

That explains the chaos, but the list is not good for players who look for an install order list for EET. The list as a whole violates the basic rules of IE modding install order with regard to mod categories. And even with this explanation, bg1ub and bst are after BG1 mod NPCs, for example.

You also did not take all info into account in the list. Example: docs of I4E states that SoD components should be installed after quest mods (which is admittedly, a newer info which came with the a recent version including all SoD content). Compatibility component with Alternatives and Saerileth should be installed after Alternatives (this info is older). Grey's readme states to install Grey as late as possible after other NPC mods (also, older info).

What does c#grey stand for, btw? It's on the list as well. (Grey the dog is c#greythedog).

If this list is meant as a "worked for me without crashes, but not an ideal mod order for crossmod and general compatibility", at least make it clear. Maybe I'm missing it, but I didn't see a readme in the project repo.

The way it goes, people see this, and take it as a functioning mod order from an experienced modder. Noone will read your statement above to see what they are getting themselves into.

 

[subtledoctor]

29 minutes ago, jastey said:

The list as a whole violates the basic rules of IE modding install order with regard to mod categories

It… doesn’t?

29 minutes ago, jastey said:

bg1ub and bst are after BG1 mod NPCs, for example

BG1UB is installed on BGEE prior to installing EET. Almost all BG1 NPCs are installed on EET. (In my current game Sirene is the only NPC mod I installed before EET.) So with the MWL BG1UB will never appear in the install list alongside most NPCs, regardless of your install order.

29 minutes ago, jastey said:

did not take all info into account in the list. Example: docs of I4E states that SoD components should be installed after quest mods (which is admittedly, a newer info which came with the a recent version including all SoD content)

Dude. I cannot dive into the documentation of every update of every mod on the off chance that it might have new or different compatibility information. I have a day job. The MWL is not like BWS or PI, you can very freely and easily choose the order in which you install mods, regardless of this list. Ultimately the responsibility is on players to choose their order. 

29 minutes ago, jastey said:

If this list is meant as a "worked for me without crashes, but not an ideal mod order for crossmod and general compatibility"

How can I possibly know what is “ideal??”  I am in the same boat as every other player. There is no perfect install order; there are myriad working orders and problematic orders, and some working orders are better than others. 

29 minutes ago, jastey said:

Grey's readme states to install Grey as late as possible after other NPC mods

If you had clicked through to the link I posted, you would see that Grey is the single last NPC installed in my game. So… seems right?

29 minutes ago, jastey said:

The way it goes, people see this, and take it as a functioning mod order from an experienced modder. Noone will read your statement above to see what they are getting themselves into.

Who see this? It is inside an .app file that cannot be used on the platform of 90% of players. For players who use the MWL on Macs, if they are inexperienced they will be guided to a non-problematic install. If they are experienced they can disregard the order and do it however they want. I may (or may not, time allowing) add the ability to build an install order from an existing weidu.log, to better automate things. 

But ultimately, if you see a problem anywhere, then FIX IT. I took pains to make that possible in the app package. I have repeatedly asked for people with wisdom and experience in this regard - especially with regard to NPC mods - to share that wisdom by posting it in the forums. For whatever reason, nobody has done that. Instead I get snippets here and there in random threads I cannot keep track of.

You would rather keep your knowledge close to the vest, and browbeat others? I have already said I am completely receptive to corrections and improvements. Wtf more do you want?

Everyone is trying to do the same thing here. Be helpful, be productive… or be out of my face.

What is it with people lately? Is it a full moon or something?

Edited October 12, 2023 by subtledoctor

[suy]

10 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Who see this? It is inside an .app file that cannot be used on the platform of 90% of players.

Partially guilty. I think I mentioned it on a conversation. People ask for publicly available lists of "this works for me", so I think I linked to your file in the Github repo, as well as the repository that contains full weidu.log files hosted by Morpheus562.

[jastey]

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

It would be nice if these mods very explicitly stated, in Readme and/or .ini files, clear statements about install order.

25 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Dude. I cannot dive into the documentation of every update of every mod on the off chance that it might have new or different compatibility information.

 

27 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

If you had clicked through to the link I posted, you would see that Grey is the single last NPC installed in my game.

Quote

~C#GREYTHEDOG/SETUP-C#GREYTHEDOG.TP2~ #0 #0 // Grey The Dog NPC: 8
~SKIECOST/SKIECOST.TP2~ #0 #0 // Skie: The Cost of One Girl's Soul - New quest for Baldur's Gate 2 EE: v4.7
~SKIECOST/SKIECOST.TP2~ #0 #1 // Skie: The Cost of One Girl's Soul - Allow Skie to return as a joinable NPC: v4.7
~SKIECOST/SKIECOST.TP2~ #0 #3 // Skie: The Cost of One Girl's Soul - The Return of Eddard Silvershield (quest & a joinable NPC v4.7
~SKIECOST/SKIECOST.TP2~ #0 #5 // Skie: The Cost of One Girl's Soul - Add brand new SoD-oriented items to BG2: v4.7

 

27 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

You would rather keep your knowledge close to the vest, and browbeat others? I have already said I am completely receptive to corrections and improvements. Wtf more do you want?

Listen to the points I'm raising, bringing the list into an order that does not violate the basic order (Fixes - GUI - quest mods - npc mods - yaddayadda) would be a start.

Anyway, I tried to phrase my concerns - it seems you took it as an affront, apologies for that. As it is, this discussion doesn't seem to lead anywhere.

[subtledoctor]

@suy: Weidu.log exemplars are always going to be the best examples, I think, because they get down to per-component granularity. OTOH, they can also vary quite a lot while still being “good” install orders. I have definitely looked at some posted weidu.log files and thought to myself “heck no, I’m not doing that.” 

Really I think we need two things:

1) It would be great if people with specific knowledge would share it! Even if it is just one little tidbit - “install Sirene before Isra, but install Sirene’s crossmod component after Isra.” I have a fair amount of knowledge on tweak mods. I have mentioned my convoluted process for installing IR and MSfM (which I’m not even sure is effective). We should have a pinned thread with nothing but little tips like this. Eventually, it could grow into a knowledge base. In the absence of a pinned thread, a place like this seems as good as any. But the people who have knowledge (*coughjastey*) do not participate. 

2) People should post about their installs, post their weidu.log, and discuss their experiences. I have done so - not because I want the attention, not because I am good it it (I never get screenshots at the right time, I never remember good details when I sit down to write a post hours later) but solely because I want to model what I would like to see more people doing. Because it would be helpful for everyone. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by subtledoctor

[subtledoctor]

On 10/12/2023 at 12:19 PM, jastey said:

bringing the list into an order that does not violate the basic order (Fixes - GUI - quest mods - npc mods - yaddayadda) would be a start

1) While the category order is a good rule of thumb, it is not a perfectly rigid, there are plenty of exceptions. 

2) Are we looking at the same document??

The first 52 lines is just GUI, fixes, BG1/SoD-specific quests and quest/content tweaks. Then there are a number of NPCs - mostly BG1 NPCs though there is a pretty big wall between BG1 and BG2 content so this is a bit arbitrary. The only BG1 quests coming after BG1 NPCs are The Calling, The Vanishing of Skie, and Black Hearts, which either specifically want to be installed late or are very recent and provide no guidance and it very likely doesn’t matter. (Can you tell me whether installing Black Hearts before or after the Emily mod makes any difference?) I see BST is fairly late, but I also see is it is pinned with UB1, so my guess is, I saw in some random place someone who sounded authoritative say UB1 should be installed late in the BGEE order, and I saw you say that BST needs to be after UB1, so I tried to accommodate those recommendations. If you think UB1 should be installed earlier you could just say so. You implied as much a few posts up, but even here you did not explicitly say it!

Moving on, from lines 106 to 155 we start to BG2 quest mods. Then from lines 156 to 188 we see a bunch of BG2 NPCs, starting with your own. Then we hit some complications, because there are “friendship mods” for lack of a better word, which do not add NPCs but just add dialogue. And then we have a number of old NPCs, like Soulafein/Kelsey/Keto, which for reasons I never understood were always placed very late, after friendship mods. So I preserved that.

And then there are a bunch of very recent NPC mods which I can only presume should be later than earlier ones, and then cross-mod content stuff. This is admittedly a mish-mash full of judgment calls - to me this is always the most frustrating part of installing mods, the best practice seems very opaque. There are people who have very particularized knowledge here (*ahem*) and people like me who don’t. I don’t know how people can be expected to get this part “right” when most of the only information available is something like a one-off line bragging about “extra interjections with Joe the Bartender!” 

And then the list gets into NPC tweaks, items, spells, and kits, areas in which I feel I am on firmer ground. And then tweaks and end mods. 

I don’t know how anyone who can read these paragraphs can say with a straight face that there is not a category progression in that list. 

EDIT - ultimately I made this app for me and people like me. And it gets the job done. If you are criticizing me for lacking knowledge that you possess, then I 100% admit to that criticism, there is room for improvement and I welcome help from any source. If you are suggesting that my app should not exist because I lack knowledge that you possess, than you can, again, be out of my face. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by subtledoctor

[pete_smith1229]

Has anyone who used the Mac Weidu Launcher complained about any of the mods in that list being broken or corrupted due to ordering? Otherwise if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[subtledoctor]

3 hours ago, pete_smith1229 said:

Has anyone who used the Mac Weidu Launcher complained about any of the mods in that list being broken or corrupted due to ordering? Otherwise if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

No. But honestly, I don’t necessarily agree with you. I'll give Jastey this: if it can be improved it should be improved! Like, after reviewing why Jastey was so put out about Grey the Dog’s placement I realized that I unwittingly have one NPC mod after Grey: The Cost of One Girl’s Soul, which lets Skie or Eddard Silvershield join the party. I suppose it’s possible that Grey has extra cross-mod content if you install the Skie mod first. In which case, I want to know that and make adjustments. (Which makes it odd that Jastey wouldn’t come out and just say that, if it is the case.)

My problem is the attitude that was brought into the conversation. Shorter version:

Quote

 

”Your thing is shitty. Why do you have this shitty thing out in the world where people can see it?”

“I think it has some value and utility, but I also fully acknowledge that it can be improved. For that I would need more information. Could you share specific information to improve it?”

“Why don’t you just make it not shitty?”

 

Not to mention, there is a thread specifically for feedback on the Mac Weidu Launcher. But Jastey feels it is appropriate to start an entirely new thread whose sole purpose is to lob attacks (many inaccurate) and pointedly decline to offer anything constructive, even by way of criticism? Just, wtf?? I don’t know, maybe it’s because I teed off Lava over something stupid, maybe he and Jastey decided to start shit with me or something. I know I’m giving it more attention than it deserves, but it’s just infuriating.

Edited October 13, 2023 by subtledoctor

[jastey]

Whoa, leave Lava out of this, this was only me.

I agree to the attitude thing, that was not appropriate. I was just stumped. - Not an excuse. And I didn't see the official thread for the launcher.

I was referring to this list I linked to in the first post. Maybe it's not the current / active one? Because I see more things in there (I criticised) than you seem to be aware of.

I see following NPC mods after Grey:

Spoiler

c#husam
skiecost
haerdalisromance

longerroad
longerroadee

edwinromance
sarevokromance
djinnicompanion
wilsonchronicles

The reason I want Grey to be installed last is that he sniffs out some monsters in disguise, and I want him to do that as a first response, not after 5 NPCs already said something - or an NPC took the whole dialogue onto some completely other path with an INTERJECT. So, while it won't lead to a gamebreaking bug if he's installed before, it's still no hassle to install him last. But, if there is an NPC mod that needs to go last because of technical issues. then Grey could yield, since it's just a recommendation.

Other things:

-I already listed some things in my posts above you chose to ignore?

c#grey - Is it still in there or is it my browser not updating? I don't know what this stands for, it has my prefix but I don't have a mod that uses this name (Grey is c#greythedog).

c#brage is my Brage's redemption mod. It has crossmod with, for example, bst and bg1ub, which on the list come later. This is also true for c#brandock.

You said you listed mods several times to indicate that there is components to be installed later. For my NPC mods, you could do that to indicate that the crossmod components (or, in the case of I4E, the SoD components) should be installed later. Or you could move the whole NPC mods after all quest mods.

On 10/12/2023 at 6:58 PM, subtledoctor said:

2) Are we looking at the same document??

The first 52 lines is just GUI, fixes

Apparently not. The list I linked to includes I4E on line 9, and quest mods afterwards. What is the mod_order.txt then?

[subtledoctor]

On 10/13/2023 at 5:53 PM, jastey said:

You said you listed mods several times to indicate that there is components to be installed later. For my NPC mods, you could do that to indicate that the crossmod components (or, in the case of I4E, the SoD components) should be installed later.

I mean, I can't indicate anything. All I can do is put a mod on the list twice, to give users some notice that some parts of it should be installed at different times. For example, how SCS appears when using the app:

Spoiler

The app cannot indicate that the IWD spells components should be installed early in the order and the rest of the mod later; all the users sees is that some of the mod can be installed earlier, and some of the mod installed later. They will have to educate themselves for more details.

On 10/13/2023 at 5:53 PM, jastey said:

Because I see more things in there (I criticised) than you seem to be aware of

Yes, you probably see all sorts of stuff in there that I am not aware of, because there is a lot that I am not aware of! I do not think I have been coy about admitting that. I would love to find more information to improve the order - specific information about particular mods, not broad categorical advice. Stuff like this:

On 10/13/2023 at 5:53 PM, jastey said:

Brage's redemption mod. It has crossmod with, for example, bst and bg1ub

  That is very useful. Or, rather than posting it or arguing about it, you know you can just click the little "edit" button on the page you linked to, and make whatever changes you see fit, and submit it as a pull request. I will happily accept it.

Of course it may be a lot to comb through the document and pick out everything you can think of. But maybe there are sources where I can find such information. Maybe threads where stuff like that has been discussed? Are the good examples out there that I can use? Someone's posted weidu.log where you approve of their NPC/quest mod order? If I knew something like that existed, I would happily copy and paste it into this app. There is possibly 4udr4n's project, but when I went to see if I might take it as an example, they seem to be waving people off:

On 9/7/2023 at 5:16 PM, 4udr4n said:

My first pass was just fixing the mess that was the previous version; there is still plenty of work to do.

I just don't know where to look for good information on this stuff.

Edited October 16, 2023 by subtledoctor

[DavidW]

On 10/12/2023 at 9:14 AM, subtledoctor said:

think it's kind of ridiculous that SCS has a spell-adding component and some class-tweaking components and various AI and encounter tweaks, and the sum total of what most players are made to understand about it is "install SCS last."

The short response to this is that if people want the spells earlier they can get them from IWDification. There will be some more to address this when v35 releases, but one thing I won't do is just remove the IWD spells from SCS entirely - plenty of people would not know about them and would miss that content, even though IWD spell use is a significant part of the mod content and most SCS players use it. (It's worth noting that plenty of people play SCS-only, or SCS+Ascension+Tweaks Anthology only, or other very small boutique installs - I want to cater to them as well as people doing PI megamods.)

[subtledoctor]

That’s fair enough. “Ridiculous” was too strong a word. My point is not to criticize such decisions, but to clarify that this tool is not designed to instruct people how to navigate such circumstances.

On Windows, mods have this wonderful ability to use the Weidu executable itself as an .exe file; but on Macs it is much more cumbersome to use. This tool, not for nothing billed simply as a “Weidu Launcher,” aspires to give Mac users that kind of convenience - and maybe a tad bit more. This tool is not a mod manager, it is an aid for manually installing mods. The install ordering is just a helpful suggestion; I myself deviate from this order almost every time I make a game. The list has improved over time and will continue to improve over time. It has been designed to allow constant iterative improvement with minimum effort. Expecting it to be “done” or to perfectly guide players is unrealistic. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by subtledoctor

[AL|EN]

One of the possible solutions to the "install SCS IWD Spells early" challenge would be to use SCS IWD spells component labels, '--ask-only' + some additional logic. This would require some coding work and other stuff but it's definitely possible.