Let’s ki- I mean, change! Throne of Bhaal

[subtledoctor]

I have edited this post to reflect my recent ideas on where this could go. I will put the first version of this post into spoiler tags at the bottom of the post, so you can read my earlier rougher ideas and follow the conversation in the thread. But my recent idea, which I may actually try to turn into a mod, is rather different from those.

...

Okay with my latest idea I keep jotting down more and more notes and... I am really liking where it is going? Basically it is like an alternate-universe version of TOB - much of the same content and places and people are there, but they may have different names and different contexts from what you know. The idea does away with the Five, with Faerun itself, and instead strands Charname on the outer planes. Existing content, art, and scenarios will be repurposed as locations on the Great Wheel, and Charname will be given a fairly linear series of tasks and travels (maybe with some open-ended/non-linear stuff in the middle, like chapter 2 of SoA) and it will all be given some weird planar flavor a là PS:T. The end will be familiar, and could maybe even be compatible with some mods, notably Crucible. Depending on how far we want to take it, it could really bring the story full-circle as far as Alaundo's prophecy - something the existing game does not really do at all.

The beginning of the idea is:

After Charname, mortal and soulless but god-touched, is dragged into hell by the death of (basically) a demigod in possession of your soul, then where are you? What are you? I don’t think we can take it for granted that you just magically get your soul back just because you beat Irenicus in combat. There is no mechanism for that; you have no machine like the one in Spellhold, or anything like that. So after the combat, you get spat out, alone and unarmed and yet-un-souled, in the wastes of Gehenna. Bereft of the protection of Bhaal’s realm, you are exposed to both evil creatures and the apocalyptic skies. Guided by a mysterious apparition that may be no more than evidence of your fractured sanity, you head to a nearby settlement, which is in dire straits. From there you will have to figure out what happened to your friends, and how to get home. 

BUT:

1) I really cannot tell if this is an idea that only appeals to me, or is something that other people would like as well and would actually install in their games. (Especially considering it would NOT be at all compatible with Ascension/Wheels of Prophecy/Longer Road/etc.)

2) I can envision what is necessary to make this idea happen, and there are parts that I would need help with. Stuff like setting up some set-piece battles with cool new enemies. People like @morpheus562 might be good at this sort of thing. Also designing some cool bespoke Planewalker NPCs to recruit - I have a couple sketched out but I welcome ideas from other people.

SO:

I don't want to spoil the idea in a public thread like this, on the off chance it ever does get made. If anyone wants to hear the full sketched-out plan, DM me and I could use feedback on it. If anyone with modding experience finds this to be an interesting idea and is interested in collaborating, also DM me and maybe we can get a team together. (Or maybe you won't like the ideas and we won't get a team together, that's fine too.)

...

Original post:

Spoiler

Premise: TOB sucks. The set-piece battles are fun, the extra content is nice, but the story is absolute garbage. By contrast, Shadows of Amn is a masterpiece. So why not repurpose the best parts of ToB as extra content within SoA?

Rationale:

1) Irenicus deserves to be the Big Bad. The Tree of Life is the end of the game. Irenicus has the intent, motive, and wherewithal to actually ascend to godhood; inserting whatserface in the last act, somehow better able to achieve what Irenicus failed to do, is terrible. We should write her out of the game.

2) The ToB content is high-level content and can be inserted into Chapter 6 of SoA. Some mobs would probably need to be toned down; that's fine. The Tree of Life and Final Battle of SoA might need to be improved; that's fine too. Quest XP in ToB areas/events would be reduced or eliminated. All of this is fairly easy. 

3) The "There Can Only Be One" Highlander junk is boring and bad - and in fact unnecsessary! Alaundo’s prophecy says this: "The spawn of the Lord of Murder are fated to come into their inheritance through bloodshed and misery. It is the hope of their father that only one shall remain alive to inherit his legacy. I foresee that the Children of Bhaal shall kill each other in a bloody massacre."

This is actually quite interesting, in a few ways. 

First, "come into their inheritance" does NOT mean ascending to godhood. It could be as simple as getting some Bhaal powers or it could be about intellectually embracing Bhaal's philosophy without any mechanical benefit - becoming the leader of a cult of murder, for instance. This is basically what Sarevok is doing in BG1. Honestly “come into your inheritance through bloodshed and misery” accurately reflects getting a few dinky Bhaal powers after assassination attempts. It could be that simple.

Second, adding "I foresee" in the last sentence is very weird, because it somewhat implies that Alaundo did *not* foresee the preceding bit? So maybe the whole thing about coming into inheritance is less reliable, not actually prophesied? Or maybe the earlier part is properly fated to happen, and the sentence after "I foresee" is just editorializing - maybe the Bhaalspawn killing each other is just a supposition, and not actual prophesy. It could kind of go either way. But either way, both the “Bhaal hopes” and “I foresee” statements are kind of equivocal; the only 100% prophetic statement is “fated to come into their inheritance through bloodshed.”

Indeed, "it is the hope of their father that one one shall remain alive" does NOT mean only one is actually *fated* to stay alive - it is a statement about Bhaal’s *preference*. And it does not explain *why* that is his preference. Think about how weird this all is - why would Bhaal want some whelp, even his own kid, succeeding to his power? He wanted to come back himself (which he eventually does, in canon) but if so, wouldn’t these children stand in his way? In which case, the fewer the better, so it’s actually in Bhaal’s interest that they murder each other. 

Of course, that is at odds with the act of creating the children in the first place! But he is a god, right? Coming back from the dead is not easy for him, the way it is for mortals. Maybe he needed the children to create the conditions for his return (his divine spark had to live on somehow), but he did not want them to take his power in the meantime (which would prevent that return). So step 1, find some way, any way, to make sure his divine spark lives in after his death. Spawn kiddies! But step 2, then, would be: make sure nobody else uses that spark to take your place! And remember, he’s dead so he cannot act directly. He can only set up the conditions and then let events play out.

Enter a mortal of supreme power and supreme arrogance. We usually understand Irenicus to be playing 5-dimensional chess in BG2, but maybe Bhaal was playing 6-dimensional chess. The story of Irenicus, after all, is a classic story of *mortal* appetites and hubris. So maybe Irenicus, as smart as he is, is really just a pawn in a much larger game. If we accept this, then Charname's *success* at the tree of life should ultimately allow for Bhaal's eventual return. 

Maybe it's something like this: Irenicus steals Charname's soul, then Charname defeats Irenicus but gets pulled into hell, in the former domain of Bhaal. Nothing about the final battle *necessarily* imply that Charname gets their soul back. Irenicus is thwarted, the elves are saved, Charname returns to Faerun a hero... but maybe that bit of soulstuff stays there - it is after all the only Bhaalspawn soul essence to have been be successfully removed from a Bhaalspwan and returned to the font of Bhaal's power, without anyone using it to ascend in his place. Now if all the other Bhaalspawn die, their sparks fade away, and the only divine soulstuff left is this: at the heart of Bhaal’s former power, and untethered to a mortal. Have some agent or ritual quicken it, and boom - to quote another murderous immortal being, “I’m back, baby!” So Murder in Baldur’s Gate and BG3 can more or less play out just as they are. This doesn’t necessarily contradict canon events. 

Of course, for purposes of a mod, that future stuff only needs to be hinted at.

 

Edited February 22 by subtledoctor

[subtledoctor]

Potential implementation details:

This where the rubber meets the road. It boils down to 1) what is feasible, and 2) what makes sense in the game’s story, and 3) what retains what fun there is in the original ToB encounters. Some ideas off the top of my head: 

You emerge from the Underdark in Saradush? Maybe have to come through the prison area. Irenicus has 1) erected a magical shield preventing teleportation out of the city; and 2) stolen Yaga-Sura’s heart and given it to Gromnir, causing Yaga-Shura to besiege the city. Basically Irenicus is going to great lengths to make sure you cannot follow him to Suldenesselar. Gromnir won’t give it up because… he has been told it can give him power? Something like that?

So my thought it, you pkay through Saradush and eventually face Gromnir, who attacks you. After winning, maybe a scripted event when resting (presumably you’ll need to rest after the Gromnir fight) that sees the wall knocked down - described in text - and then fade in at the scene of the final battle against Yaga Shura. You can offer him his heart, but he wants to murder you and everyone, assuming you are an accomplice in the theft. 

Maybe the heart can restore the hole in your soul? Not replace your divine essence, but at least stop you from withering away and giving you the strength to go after Irenicus? (In which case, need to implement some mechanic for weakening you if you don’t use it.)

To do that, you bring the heart to the temple. Have to change all the dialogue there. Returning the heart restores you *and* maybe gives you an upgrade as well, something with which to fight Irenicus. (Timestop immunity?)

Upon leaving the area, use the mechanism that brings you to random encounters, like when you meet Renfield. But it routes you to the elven battlefield where you are brought to Elhan. 

Then go to the elven battlefield, get the talk about Suldenesselar. Need to look for the Rhynn Lanthorn. 

Now go back to Athkatla, keep it the same as before, BUT remove Bodhi from her base. Leave a note instead, that she has taken the Rhynn Lanthorn to Amkethran. Or maybe? broken it into pieces: one in Amkethran, one in the Fire Giant temple, one in Abazigal’s fortress. These ToB areas now become a MacGuffin quest in order to reach the Tree of Life. Of course need to change their dialogue, but that’s easy enough.

Put Bodhi with Irenicus in the fight at the Tree, since you will now be over-leveled and it would be cool to face both together. 

Buff the final fight against Irenicus in hell. And afterward, cut to a scene with the Solar: here you are, in the Abyss, at the Throne if Bhaal, with your own mortal soul restored and Bhaal’s divine spark, activated by the Tree of Life and ripped away from Irenicus, floating before you in the seat of his former power. What do you do? Take the Bhaal essence and the Abyssal domain and become a demigod? Or leave it there and return to your mortal life? 

And cut to the epilogues. 

If I recall correctly, that basically leaves the Oasis, the Fire Temple, and Sendai’s Enclave unused. The Oasis can easily be plugged in somewhere, maybe with dialogue modified. Not sure about the other two, but also not sure if they are needed, as they are my least favorite parts of ToB. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by subtledoctor

[Thacobell]

Counterpoint: I like ToB, and would rather see it improved, rather than chopped up and spread around SoA.

[morpheus562]

7 minutes ago, Thacobell said:

Counterpoint: I like ToB, and would rather see it improved, rather than chopped up and spread around SoA.

I have something underway to this point.

[subtledoctor]

21 minutes ago, Thacobell said:

Counterpoint: I like ToB, and would rather see it improved, rather than chopped up and spread around SoA.

Then you are well-served by existing efforts. But me, after 20 years I have found that even after all the effort that has gone into ToB mods, I still find it lacking. Mostly because of the terrible story and pulled-from-nowhere one-dimensional villain(s). So I would like to add emphasis to the existing villain who is already the greatest. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by subtledoctor

[Lurker]

8 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

But me, after 20 years I have found that even after all the effort that has gone into ToB mods, I still find it lacking.

All what effort? There are so few mods bothering with ToB, and the few that exist seem to fight with their brethren about their own path to ascension, without regard for mortal collateral damage.

And if only to sully the highly regarded SoA I have to say, for all the bla bla bla about the soul, I never felt threatened without one in the game. Backporting the spirit eater meachanic from NWN2:MotB, perhaps?

10 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

If I recall correctly, that basically leaves the Oasis, the Fire Temple, and Sendai’s Enclave unused.

The charm of the Oasis is that that's one of the few places where the godchild can mow down an "army" of puny mortals. The same with Sendai's Lair; I hate it when the player's alter ego is treated as nothing more than a nuisance until after the credits have finished. Sendai at least has the decency to act like she's threatened by the player. Another good example was the crime lord Visquis in KotOR2, when the Exile "visits" his compound.

Irenicus is a way to arrogant dickhead to provide such a service. If it wasn't for David Warner's terrific voice acting, nobody would really care for that pompous elven leather face.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Lurker

[Thacobell]

21 minutes ago, Lurker said:

All what effort? There are so few mods bothering with ToB, and the few that exist seem to fight with their brethren about their own path to ascension, without regard for mortal collateral damage.

Yeah, pretty much this. There's nothing that really messes with the narrative of ToB. Only bug fixes, a small handful of side content and npcs, and some balance changes.
ToB has a ton of potential, a bhallspawn war could be such an amazing finale. SoA is easily the best part of the saga, but it feels like such a detour narratively. The series makes so much out of Bhaal's essence and the Bhaalspawn, and SoA's main threat is a random wizard looking for souls. Its a great self contained story, but is kinda unfulfilling as a grand finale.

[Connelly]

Feels to me like it'd be more narratively satisfying to build up A from before ToB. SoD gave us foreshadowing of Irenicus and his philosophy; having A similarly showing up in SoA doesn't seem like it would work, but adding bits since BG1 hinting at what's going to happen or A's character seems workable? Sarevok mentioning in a journal what Winski told him about Bhaal's last high priestess, tips of someone taking an interest in Charname during SoA who isn't the usual suspects... dunno about SoA in particular. Then if you wanted to be fancy, you could expand each act in ToB along some sort of theme you wanted to examine before the conclusion, be it one already provided by the Five in particular you're facing or an appropriate theme to apply to whoever isn't providing any. Just sand off the rough edges for the finale to make it as great as Bioware tried, and didn't have the time to do.

But I'm not going to stop anyone from cut ToB up to harvest the organs I guess.

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Second, adding "I foresee" in the last sentence is very weird

Dunno, sounds to me more like a reminder that everything Alaundo is saying is a prophecy to pay attention, and not just a lucky guess to dismiss at your own risk? It could also be that after yers it just got edited by people for one reason or another, and someone decided to give it a bit of dramatic flair. It's not something I'd give much thought.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Connelly

[moggadeet]

This started out as a quick response and rapidly got out of hand. My apologies for the wall of text. tl,dr: expanding what's there would be more to my taste, and adding greater openness, roleplay possibilities, and companion engagement would go a long way towards improving ToB.

I'd rather try and "fix" ToB by foreshadowing its villains earlier on. I didn't care for SoD's approach to Irenicus, personally (I thought it was too obvious), but Black Hearts' earlier introduction of Illasera was, imo, brilliant. What if you could meet one of Balthazar's monks in Candlekeep? What if news of a Bhaalspawn's involvement in Ust Natha somehow reached Sendai? What if the Five were already hunting Charname (once word of Sarevok's death and Charname's heritage got round), and Irenicus' abduction actually helped in that temporarily vanishing hid them? For that matter, in SoD, Boareskyr and the ruined Bhaal temple nearby are begging for an expansion - according to Faiths and Avatars, the part of the river poisoned by Bhaal's blood still retains a limited sort of awareness: "It is believed a fragment of Bhaal's personality remains in the jet black, foul-smelling waters of the Winding Water ... If Bhaal is ever resurrected, it will be in the shadow of Boareskyr Bridge."

I think that's such a cool detail, and I'm disappointed that SoD didn't offer more of an opportunity for the protagonist to really wrestle with their heritage and their history. I love jastey's Boareskyr mod, but Boareskyr and the ruined temple are both places that, imo, are still crying out for something more. The random group of Cyricists is... well, it makes sense for them to have taken over a Bhaal temple, I'm not arguing that, but it'd be neat to have an early run-in with a few of Illasera's slayers, maybe, or some reference to Amelyssan (or to the other children who were there at one point). Maybe in SoA you could meet someone who used to be part of Gromnir's group but left when he started getting paranoid, enough to give a vague sense of danger.

Yes, the out of nowhere villains aren't ideal - I'd rather fix that by introducing them in small ways earlier on. Not directly, necessarily, but even some references to the Five existing and plotting would go a long way, imo. SoA has a few references to the Sythilisian Empire; adding some rumors/news about drow raids and mercenary armies to the south might help a bit. The particulars of the highlander thing are kind of silly to me, I admit, but the premise of the last and most powerful of Bhaal's offspring struggling for dominance while Charname must reconcile their ideals with their heritage is compelling. Theoretically. My main gripes are the linearity and the (pardon me) ludonarrative dissonance, the way the game funnels you along the same path regardless and the actual roleplay is limited to your conversations with the Solar. That plus being forced to pretend that there's absolutely nothing suspicious about Melissan is just deeply annoying.

Quest Pack (and, theoretically, Wheels of Prophecy - liked what I saw, shame about the bugs at present) go some ways towards improving this. I'd love for more character chatter (especially with the PC, preferably after particular plot events - I feel like I always run out of dialogue) and more possibilities for roleplay.

Oh, and while I'm at it with wildly unreasonable suggestions, a minor quest where the player must win the allegiance of a planetar/fallen planetar before being able to cast the spell would be cool. Make it seem more like you're gathering allies and an army of your own.

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, moggadeet said:

This started out as a quick response and rapidly got out of hand. My apologies for the wall of text.

Lol, this is exactly what I wanted when I started the thread! People kicking around ideas and opinions. It's great.

3 hours ago, Lurker said:

Backporting the spirit eater meachanic from NWN2:MotB, perhaps?

Ha ha, yes this did cross my mind. I was thinking less "you must devour souls" and more "-1 penalty to STR/DEX/CON." A pointed reversal of the awesome DUHM ability most players use throughout the game.

That game did such a better job at showing what an epic-level expansion could be. BG2 is like, a bad guy with powerful magic is trying to ascend to godhood and you get pulled into Hell for a climactic fight to stop them... and now for an expansion, uh, well, a bad guy with powerful magic is trying to ascend to godhood and you get pulled into Hell for a climactic fight to stop them! And forget story or progression, we'll just literally teleport you around to fast-forward to the next set-piece fight. Ugh, when you look at it from certain angles it's just so bad...

3 hours ago, Thacobell said:

SoA is easily the best part of the saga, but it feels like such a detour narratively.

That's true, but only because you are seeing it from the perspective of having played BG1 and ToB on either side of it. Fact is, the whole Alaundo's Prophecy thing was really just written for BG1 to establish the threat of Sarevok. I think it did a great job there, but that doesn't mean it needs to be the focus of everything else for Charname. SoA basically left that aside and considered how things might play out in this wild magical world for someone with a minor divine essence. And they wrote a story about how this magical mofo ends up stealing your destiny. That's very cool. If anything, I think ToB should have played this up - your destiny was disrupted, so you can be more of a free agent in the climax of the Bhaalspawn wars, instead of bound by the prophecy. ToB turns you into a weird bullet that a solar, of all things, keeps firing at other Bhaalspawn. You have so little real agency it's sad. (But the writing doesn't play that up either!)

1 hour ago, moggadeet said:

but the premise of the last and most powerful of Bhaal's offspring struggling for dominance while Charname must reconcile their ideals with their heritage is compelling

Sort of. As I say, there is nothing about Alaundo's Prophecy that really implies a single-elimination tournament for godhood. (And the most-loved mod for it... turns it into a double-elimination tournament. Yippee.) Sarevok's story was super compelling, and had no hint of that. Again, Bhaal had all these kids to preserve his chance to return to godhood - not theirs. So them warring against each other hoping to be the last one doesn't make any sense. I think it would be much more grounded to cast these other Bhaalspawn as simply driven to war and slaughter in search of power. And fellow Bhaalspawn are simply viewed as competition. It can be that simple and still be compelling.

3 hours ago, Thacobell said:

ToB has a ton of potential, a bhallspawn war could be such an amazing finale.

Totally agree, I just think you could do that without Ms. A and without the Throne of Bhaal itself. My original idea was to try to leave the expansion more or less as-is, only subbing in a different bad guy and remove the cheap teleportation thing. But what bad guy wouldn't be out of left field? So then I thought to push the content earlier, to where we already have a wonderful bad guy, with a wonderful evil plan and a wonderful climactic battle. But instead of just Charname chasing down Irenicus, bring in these other actors. If someone has managed to activate the Bhaal essence with the power of the Tree of Life, then the ultimate prize is up for grabs - not just for Charname and Irenicus, but for anyone who can grasp it, especially The Five. So I thought, maybe make it a real "Battle of Five Armies" finish, where contingents of elves, drow, fire giants, monks, and dragons all make a mad dash for the Tree to claim it. That could be amazing but... I'm not sure how to make it amazing, with the resources available.

(What I really think would be great would be to smush ToB into SoA, and then as an proper expansion with a scope more comparable to MotB, write it such that, while Charname does not ascend to Bhaal's place, the urge to seek out similar power takes him to the planes, where after many off-page twists and turns he becomes The Nameless One - do a total conversion of P:ST as an expansion of BG2. Ah, I can dream...)

Edited October 28, 2023 by subtledoctor

[morpheus562]

In addition to my current project involving ToB, I am beginning to look at doing a complete overhaul of SoD to better tie it in with ToB. Big bad in the SoD Remix would be a priestess of Amelyssan influencing Bhaalspawn in the area while making alliances for Amelyssan's bid to become a god. Caelar can be present as someone who became aware of Sarevok's plan and sought to bring an end to it with an army of her own. This can span to Avernus with making deals with demons/devils as Amelyssan has them at her side in ToB, so here we can see her minions attempting to establish those connections. All of it would culminate in the battle in the Bhaal temple that was retaken by Bhaal's disciples. I am by no means a storyteller, so hammering out these parts has been difficult, but I feel this could assist in bridging the series as a whole by giving foresight into this unknown Bhaal disciple threat that looms on the horizon.

[Thacobell]

" But what bad guy wouldn't be out of left field?"
The thing is, "A" really shouldn't be out of left field. Short of a battle with Bhaal himself, a traitorous high priestess makes sense. The issue is that she comes out of nowhere with an obvious "twist". She could work really well with some tweaking.

[polytope]

I'm going to disagree that the problem is the plot or the railroading, it's already railroaded in the late game of BG1 and BG2 once you get to the Underdark really.

The problem is progressive late game imbalance due to a surfeit of abilities and artifact level-items, the seeming complexity offered by all the options available to high level characters is redundant because there are so few meaningful challenges at that point.

[moggadeet]

Apologies if this is overly pedantic, but you can leave the Underdark at (almost) any time. It isn't even necessary to visit Ust Natha, technically (if you're willing to fight your way through), but the drow disguise plus high charisma lets you bluff your way past the guards in the kuo-toa tunnels. Only non-evil characters who are willing to help Adalon are railroaded. I actually like the knowledge that you could, technically, bow out - it makes slogging through the whole drow plot feel like an actual commitment, rather than a necessity. Chapters 6 and 7 are definitely quite linear, though, I agree.

[megrimlock]

7 hours ago, moggadeet said:

What if news of a Bhaalspawn's involvement in Ust Natha somehow reached Sendai?

Generally agreed that more foreshadowing of the Five would be good. I'm pretty sure that the NPC Thael ties Sendai to Ust Natha as Thael's quest is one of revenge involving her and he originally has traced her to Ust Natha (I think? Waiting on JohnBob translating this one!) And yes, Black Hearts' use of Illasera is awesome.

In general I am sure I would absolutely play subtledoctor's TOB-in-SOA-and-then-PST, but very much as a side hustle. I have yet to play Lava's Juniper and am very keen for morpheus's Crucible and generally want more TOB content, not less.

Edited October 28, 2023 by megrimlock