[35.10] Carsa on a dialogue loop

[Trouveur80]

After charming Carsa so she dropped the jar and freed Khark in the Firewine ruins, I told her to go to Gullykin after killing him.

But when I meet her again in Gullykin temple, she starts her initial conversation as if in the Firewine area, and as if she still have the jar. If I exit the conversation, then the post Khark death fires and I can then tell her again to go to Gullykin and again receive 1000 XP.

 

[DavidW]

Will check. thanks.

[RoyalProtector]

Well, thanks for that. I didn't know that was a possible path to take.

Note to modders: More charm reactions to BG2EE please!

[Thacobell]

Can second this bug, it happended to me as well.

[ktchong]

Experiencing the same problem.  Had already completed "Madwoman of the Firewine Bridge" and sent Carsa to Gullykin.   Went to Gurrykin, and Carsa was in the temple.   Carsa kept initiating dialog with my party and going through the same dialog loop.  My party also kept getting the 1,000 XP from Carsa, she disappeared... and then immediately reappeared, and initiated the same dialog again.

 

Edited March 12 by ktchong

[jastey]

On 3/5/2024 at 4:28 PM, RoyalProtector said:

More charm reactions to BG2EE please!

I completely ignored this so far, coming from oBGII where it turned people hostile or didn't work or some other reason.

[RoyalProtector]

37 minutes ago, jastey said:

I completely ignored this so far, coming from oBGII where it turned people hostile or didn't work or some other reason.

Ah, yes. That is rather annoying. I believe EETweaks has a tweak to disable the hostile reaction. Sorely needed.

I hope someone makes a mod for charm reactions though. Disabling hostile reactions could be an optional component thereof.

[ktchong]

Anyway, the dialog loop is fairly close to game-breaking as Carsa kept initiating the dialog loop and interrupting my game in Gullykin.  I assume Carsa was supposed to have a new dialog or prompt when she was in the Gullykin temple, but the wrong state/trigger/variable was set when she was sent from Firewine Bridge to Gullykin.   What is the variable?  Is there a way to manually set the variable?  

Another problem with Carsa:

If the "Madwoman of Firewine Bridge" quest was resolved in a different way, (i.e., forcibly taking the jar from her instead of casting Charm on her,) the journal entries for that quest should be closed.  

If the quest was resolved forcibly by taking the jar from Carsa, then her closing/last journal entry should mention something like, "... maybe there could have been a better way to help Carsa," or something like that to let players know that there is another less obvious way to resolve that encounter.

Edited March 12 by ktchong

[RoyalProtector]

I'm still shocked there was a hidden way of resolving the quest, without direct confrontation.

Note to self: try charming every damn NPC in BGEE.

[ktchong]

7 hours ago, RoyalProtector said:

I'm still shocked there was a hidden way of resolving the quest, without direct confrontation.

Note to self: try charming every damn NPC in BGEE.

You should not.  Non-joinable NPC would turn hostile when the charm inevitably wore off.  Which was why most players did not think of using charm on Carsa as a solution, i.e., my party did not go around charming people left and right =  picking fights with random NPC.

IMO,  a number of companion (preferably a magic user like Jaheira or Xan but not Dynaheir who is an Invoker and knows nothing about charms) should have interjected when Carsa refused to turn over the jar.  The companion should have offered an advice that Carsa seemed to be under some kind of powerful charm or dark magic, and that they should try to use magic to clear her mind.   Otherwise, most players would not have thought of casting Charm on the non-hostile Carsa because we assumed it would turn her hostile later when the charm wore off.

And, if the player resorted to taking the jar from Carsa by force, (which would kill Carsa,) then the last journal entry for "Madwoman of the Firewine Bridge" should write something like, "Unfortunately, my attempt to help the poor woman killed her... if only there was another way to save her life, perhaps with magic," or something along those lines.  Just to give a hint to players that there is another way.

Edited March 12 by ktchong

[RoyalProtector]

All good points.

Still, I will try after using a mod to turn off the hostile reaction after charm.

[ktchong]

17 minutes ago, RoyalProtector said:

All good points.

Still, I will try after using a mod to turn off the hostile reaction after charm.

I remember there was a mod component that turned off hostile reaction after charm, but I forgot which mod.  However, I did NOT install that component.

The reason: some NPC, when they were charmed, would say something like: "I know I am under  a charm right now, but as soon as the charm wears off, I am gonna attack you."  An example: Black Lily under a charm would say to you: "As a good friend, I must warn you: Magic use isn't appreciated in the guild, especially if it's used against guild members. I'll likely have to kill you once this parlor sorcery wears off."   So it would not make sense to turn off the hostility for those NPC.

The only purpose of Charm spells seems to be for combat.  The spells turn some enemies to your side during battles.  Unfortunately, they were not designed to offer any role-playing purpose outside combat.

There are a few exceptions: the charm ability of Algernon's Cloak or Nymph Cloak does NOT turn its target hostile when its effect wears off.

Edited March 12 by ktchong

[Trouveur80]

50 minutes ago, ktchong said:

I remember there was a mod component that turned off hostile reaction after charm, but I forgot which mod.  However, I did NOT install that component.

The reason: some NPC, when they were charmed, would say something like: "I know I am under  a charm right now, but as soon as the charm wears off, I am gonna attack you."  An example: Black Lily under a charm would say to you: "As a good friend, I must warn you: Magic use isn't appreciated in the guild, especially if it's used against guild members. I'll likely have to kill you once this parlor sorcery wears off."   So it would not make sense to turn off the hostility for those NPC.

The only purpose of Charm spells seems to be for combat.  The spells turn some enemies to your side during battles.  Unfortunately, they were not designed to offer any role-playing purpose outside combat.

There are a few exceptions: the charm ability of Algernon's Cloak or Nymph Cloak does NOT turn its target hostile when its effect wears off.

It's EET Tweaks, as RoyalProtector said above.

I disagree with charm serving only in combat in BG1. In original BG1, charm didn't turn hostile the victims, and there is many specific dialogs for charmed creature. Even Dynaheir have something to say if charmed !

Definitely, charm was meant as a roleplaying option in original BG1.

Sadly, BGEE took BG2 behaviour of turning hostile after charm.

Some examples here :

https://lilura1.blogspot.com/2019/10/Baldurs-Gate-Retrospective-Review-Charming-Dialogue-on-charm-dialogue-Charm-Person-Algernons-Cloak.html

 

Edited March 12 by Trouveur80

[RoyalProtector]

48 minutes ago, ktchong said:

they were not designed to offer any role-playing purpose outside combat.

They must have been to some extent, since it unlocks dialogs, but it looks like an unfinished feature.

[ktchong]

IMO, the level-1 wizard spell Friend, in addition to raising Charisma, should be able to also target on some (but not all) NPC that have turned from green to red, (due to expired charm or failed pickpocket.)  Otherwise, it is a fairly useless spell.  

i.e., if the spell is targeted on self, it increases Charisma.  If it is targeted on an NPC that has turned from green to red, it turns the NPC back to green, (the NPC has a chance to save.)   If it is targeted on a green NPC, it does nothing.

Of course, the Friend spell would not work on NPC that are scripted to turn hostile, (which is gonna be a nightmare to implement because have to go through all the NPC to see which ones are supposed to turn hostile and which ones are not.)

Edited March 12 by ktchong