Overview of LoI

[Ellderon]

Somone mentioned a way around the exe for elven paladins and alike... It was on the Forgotten Wars forums...Have to look for it

[Guest Aristothenes]

The other person that worked on BG2 novels was Drew Karpyshyn.

About canon or not-canon, I would say yes, it is.

Why?

1) Xanathar(not _THE Xanathar_) died in Waterdeep - Eye of the Beholder

2) Project members on Bioware (Karpyshyn) wrote the book, which was considered canon.

3) Even the D&D comic characters (Vajra Valmeyjar, Timoth Eyesbright, Onyx) are mentioned in LoI boxed set.

4) About the only game series that I see doesn't fit in with FR was the Ravenloft set (Strahd's Possession, Stone Prophet) - they took place at start in FR (some lady called Baranta Chansil(goodguy) was involved)

5) Biggest inconsistency so far is Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II. The maps are canon, but the ingame Athkatla map isn't.

6) Random thought: don't you get the feeling that Khelben's Warding whip mas made so that Ed Greenwood could 'out-magic' Gary Gygax's Bigby, Otiluke, Mordenkainen and Prince Brightflame(Melf) from Oerth?

[Andyr]

Somone mentioned a way around the exe for elven paladins and alike... It was on the Forgotten Wars forums...Have to look for it

We know about creating dummy kits and chanmging stuff with scripts or dialogue, yes, but nobody knows how to make them selectable through the character generation screen, as if you always could.

[Grim Squeaker]

What Andyr really wants is someone to hax0r the exe to add a scroll bar to the kit selection menu...

[Andyr]

That would be nice. Or really just to unlock the racial restrictions. Or add a new step to character generation to allow subraces. Or add new paper dolls (beardless female gnomes/dwarves!). Or add a new base class.

[Creepin]

What Andyr really wants is someone to hax0r the exe to add a scroll bar to the kit selection menu...

Yeah, yeah!! And scroll bar to spell selection for sorcerers, and one little scrollbar to magic books of cleric/rangers and mages and a ... umm, what was the talk about?

[Ellderon]

Can someone do it? It would really rock (BIIIIG time!)

 

Or it might be done another way?

Since any elf can be a fighter, why not put a elven paladin in there as a fighter sub-kit?

 

How about a War Sorceres (Or War Wizzard) Sorcerer Kit? Basicly a Sorcerer that has fewer spells, but has more hp and is good with longswords, schimitars and another weapon or two...

 

P.S. - Erm...forgot what I wanted to say...Bleah..

 

P.S.S. - you want me to send you all the little things I done (the items, some changed creatures, my dialog.tlk)?

I finally balanced and fixed all armors in the game(Damag reduction rulez!) ANd allso made all weapons available to anyone.

Thy joy of seeing my Wizzards swing that bastard sword...sniff...

[NiGHTMARE]

Race/class restrictions: Personally I don't agree that all classes should be open to all races (just like not all kits should be open to all races), though I do think certain race/class combinations which aren't allowed should be. In fact, there are some combinations allowed in pen and paper 2nd Edition which aren't possible in BG2, such as elven druids (and halflings and gnomes both have priest kits which are so close to being druids they practically are druids), and so we'll be implementing these.

 

Paladins are one class which I think should remain human only (for various reasons), but we are introducing various "holy warrior" types of cleric kit, such as the crusader, champion, and war priest. Allowing other races to become paladins would cause obvious conflicts with the whole "Mazzy can't become a paladin" issue, and from a purely technical standpoint we're running low on fighter kit slots .

 

 

New armor system: It sounds intriguing, but we'd have to see it in action first. We're planning to add several new types of armor, such as padded armor, banded mail and chain shirts, so new stats for these would have to be worked out. We're also planning to include a quality and material system for non-magical armor, and combining the altered stats of these with an altered damage system could get very complicated . I'd imagine working out the bonuses/penalties each individual suit magical armor should grant you could get rather time consuming as well.

 

Another worry is that including such a thing in LoI is pretty much guaranteed to generate complaints from people who preffered the old system.

 

 

Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II inconsistencies: technically these were created by TSR rather than Bioware, since the book (obviously) came out after BG2 .

 

 

Sorcerer kits: BG2 doesn't allow kits for Sorcerers, Monks or Barbarians, but you can fake them by using scripting. Granting them extra or fewer spells and HP per level is certainly possible, but changing weapon/armor restrictions and maximum proficiency points is not.

 

 

Sending stuff: if you could convert your dialog.tlk to a text file (easily done in Near Infinity) and remove all the original lines, that would be a huge help . As Andyr mention we're using WeiDU for this mod, and I heartily encourage you to try your hand at it - it isn't anywhere near as complicated as it first seems .

 

 

All weapons for all classes: as with the new armor system, there would be many complaints if we included this . It's already part of an existing tweak pack (Ashes of Embers), so if anyone really wants this in LoI then they can simply install that. Come to think of it, I suppose we could include an optional "controversial tweaks" component .

 

 

BTW I'm keeping a close eye on GemRB, which aims to be a complete remake of the Infinity Engine but allowing for far more customization. If and when it gets into a fully usable/playable state, we can discuss switching to it .

Edited July 21, 2004 by NiGHTMARE

[Ellderon]

Seems srtange, doesn't it? Elves are far more good orianted than humans, yet they cannot become paladins?

 

But strangely, it works for creatures... I made changed one of the elves of Sundellesanr to a paldin and it worked normally.

Seems that the PC can't be a elven Paladin, but other creatures can...

 

My new armor system is allready completely implemented. I changed EVERY armor in game and the descriptions accordingly....Like this:

 

FULL PLATE MAIL

70% damage reduction from all

-5 casting speed

Stealth Penalty -75

Pickpocket -65

Open Locks -35

Weight 70

Required 15 STR

 

 

 

PLATE MAIL

60% damage reduction from all

-4 casting speed

Stealth Penalty -70

Pickpocket -60

Open Locks -30

Weight 50

Required 14 STR

 

-----------------------------

CHAIN MAIL

60% from Missile, 40% Pierce, 40% Slashing, 20% Blunt

-2 casting speed

Weight 35

Required 11 STR

 

SPLINT MAIL

40% damage reduction from all

-2 casting speed (I'll maby put -3)

Weight 40

Required 12 STR

 

 

STEALTH PENALTY (-20), THIEVING PENALTY(-10)

-------------------------

SUDDED LEATHER

25% Slashin, Piercing, Missile, 10% Bunt

Weight 25

Requires 6 Strength

AC +1

 

 

LEATHER ARMOR

15% from Slashing, Piercing, Missile, 10% Blunt

Weight 15

Requires 5 Strength

AC +2

 

I have Near Infinity, but have no idea how to start it. (Don't think I have Java..gotta get it) Wouldn't it be easier if I sent yu my dialog.tlk, and you converted it to text yourself?

 

I still have to check the WEIDU tutorials, since I just downloaded it.

 

 

All weapons for all classes - don't see how anyone can complain about that. Sure that a mage can swing a longsword, but he can't gain proficiency in it - he isn't any good with it really. I just removed the restriction from the weapons, I didn't touch the classes.

And I allso changed some of the requirements.

Alltough mages CAN now wear ANY armor, the requirements and penalties make it far less desirable. Allmost no mage can use the two-hander, since most have less than 16 str.

So you see...I'm all for realism that isn't too hard to implement and that doesn't hurt the gameplay...

 

 

EDIT: I allso have an idea for a new Paladin Kit - Avenger...detail later:D

Edited July 22, 2004 by Ellderon

[NiGHTMARE]

Well, the standard alignment for elves is chaotic good, and of course paladins are lawful good. Also, elves tend to be defensive in nature (they're content to leave most evil beings alone as long as such beings leave them alone), while paladins need a certain degree of offensiveness - a holy crusade wouldn't really appeal to the typical elf, but a paladin would be all for it . Dwarves do tend to be lawful good, but generally lack the charisma required of a paladin.

 

As I said, we are going to add various "holy warrior" types of kit, some of which are unique to individual races . For example, the champion is a dwarf-only kit, and the war priest is only available to halfbreeds (half-orcs, half-ogres, etc). There's also a half-elf NPC in LoI who has paladin-like abilities, though these come from arcane rather than divine powers.

 

 

Regarding the altered weapon/armour restrictions, have you taken into account the fact that certain classes aren't allowed to use certain items not just because they don't know how to use them, but because of their religious/spiritual beliefs? For example, druids' beliefs mean they aren't allowed to wear metallic armor or use most bladed weapons, and standard clerics are allowed to use bladed weapons either (though speciality priests' weaon and armor restrictions vary wildly).

 

BTW, using WeiDu it's possible to automatically change item and weapon restrictions, damage resistances, AC, etc rather than edit individual .itm's, and you can even code it to affect items added by other mods .

 

 

The reason many people would object to any changes of this nature is mainly because such changes are against the official 2nd Edition rules. While a lot of people wouldn't mind in the slightest if we bent or even broke the rules, many virtually worship the D&D system, and would virtually would hate us for such "blasphemy" . Plus I'm sure some of the people who don't mind us breaking the rules would simply dislike some or all of the changes.

 

 

I suggested an optional "controversial tweaks" component in the previous post, and thinking on it further I believe it's a good idea. It would keep both the "don't screw with the rules!!!" and the "I couldn't care less about the rules" camps happy . In fact, I have a few things of my own that could be added to such a component. These include a 3rd Edition style feats system, making Imeon a bard rather than a thief/mage, and turning her into the Ravager if you don't rescue her in time.

 

 

I can extract your text, though I'll have to make sure to backup the original dialog.tlk first .

 

 

Paladin kit ideas are good - they're the one class we need a few more kits for. All the other classes have all the available slots filled up already .

Edited July 22, 2004 by NiGHTMARE

[Ellderon]

If you have that weapons/armor rules&system thing selectable, then everyone will be happy! Alltough I tested it and I say it works good.

 

 

I'm currently trying to make two of my own NPC's:

Here's a short summary: (notw the stats are not set, since I gave my version of BG2 different modifiers...)

 

NAME: Aquarillyane Starsunder (Aquae)

GENDER: Female

RACE: Elf

ALIGMENT: Neutral Good

CLASS: Sorceress

 

STR:12

DEX:19 (or 20)

INT:18 (or19)

WIS:12

CONST:10

CHA:16

 

Location - you find her somewhere in the forest fighting orcs.

 

BIO - Her parents were two powerfull elven mages who lived secluded deep in the woods. When she was still young a horde of rampaging orcs stormed trough the forest and attacked their house. Her parents foung bravely and killed allmost all the Orc before thy fell. Only several were left and they were driven away by the elven Ranger Elith, a firend of her parents(and hers..and another of the NPC's I want to make). He took her to the Tenthar Taerhamoos, Archmage of the Phoenix tower.

It is there where her spellcasting abilities became aparent, and Tenthar took her as an apprentice.

She left the tower in search of adventure - and the Orc leader Ghuluk....

 

******* ******* ****** ******

NAME: Thalia (still not set???)

GENDER: Female

RACE: Half-elf

ALIGMENT: Lawfull Good

CLASS: Paladin (or some kit)

 

I have a comical banter with Mazzy in my head:

Mazzy: "Say Thalia, how is it that you, an elf, could become a paladin, and I can't?"

Thalia: "It's a rule thing."

Mazzy: "What?"

Thalia: "Well this game is based on standard D&D 2E rules that say only humans can be paladins.."

Mazzy: "Err....sooo? You are a paladin, I'm not!"

Thalia: "That's couse I'm part of the mod and the modder didn't give a damn about that stupid rule...You're a cannon charachter."

Mazzy: "But that modder could have changed me too, right?"

Thalia: "Yep... But I guess he wanted to leave you as you were. Probably to keep the fans happy or something."

Mazzy: "*Grumble*.. Stupid modder *grumble*"

 

********

NAME: Elith

GENDER:Male

RACE: Elf (?)

ALIGMENT: Chaotic Good

CLASS: Ranger (or some kit)

 

Suffice to say that he would be very protective of Aquae if they are both in the party.

 

*********

 

NAME: Echtellion

GENDER: Male

RACE: Elf

ALIGMNET: Lawfull Good

CLASS: Fighter/Mage (or battlemage - a custom kit I had in mind)

 

******

NAME: Radgast Spellstorm

GENDER: Male

RACE: Human

ALIGMENT: Lawfull Good

CLASS: Mage

 

 

Probably won't make them all, but it's just a sketch...

 

 

Will psot that Paladin kit later..

 

b.t.w. - you want me to send you those files or not?

Edited July 22, 2004 by Ellderon

[Guest Aristothenes]

Bioware was inconsistent, not TSR. In Lands of Intrigue(released before BG2) the Athkatla map is the same as with Volo's Guide.

I'm just saying Bioware has an independent streak.

About the only 3D game that doesn't fit the timeline would be Descent to Undermountain (I haven't played Menzoberranzan yet, or any of the PoR games, eventhough I have the whole DnD set except Dragonlance series)

[Guest Aristothenes]

Sorry, Substitute "Saradush" for Athkatla in the above post.

I DO have a map from another TSR FR product, released before BG2, that has the consistent map of Athkatla with Volo's Guide, but I don't remember the name right now.

[NiGHTMARE]

So, this "controversial tweaks" component could include:

 

- Remove class-based weapon restrictions*

- New armour damage resistance system

- 3rd Edition style feats

- Make Imoen a bard

- Imoen rescue time limit

- Kits selected via strongholds**

 

* a note on the weapon restrictions: LoI will already alter weapon restrictions so all weapons are usable by clerics. However, this is only for technical purposes - "true-class" clerics (i.e. clerics without a kit) will actually have a kit applied to them which reinstates their proper restrictions. Doing this lets us set more accurate restrictions for other types of priest, e.g. the crusader and war priest can use any weapon.

 

** Another idea we discussed a while back: you wouldn't chose a kit for your character in the start-up screen: instead, you get to chose it once you recieve the stronghold appropriate for your class.

 

 

Aquarillyane Starsunder: an elven sorceress would be pretty cool . I expect she'd be treated quite badly by most other surface elves who knew of her nature, as they'd probably assume her to have a demonic ancestor (a big no no in elven society). That would certainly prove quite interesting.

 

 

Thalia: We're already going to be adding a female paladin to the game, so if both were included it would be repeating things a little bit. As for the sample banter, Bondari reloads can be good if done subtly, but this just an entirely "OMG this a game, stop getting so absorbed in it!!!" moment .

 

For these reasons, would you perhaps be willing to consider having her be a crusader instead? If it helps make your mind up, here's the crusader's description and abilties:

 

CRUSADER: The crusader is closely related to the cleric, but while the cleric can be described as a defender of the faith, the crusader is a weapon against the enemies of the temple he serves.  He is a true soldier-priest, skilled in physical combat and armed with spells appropriate for the battlefield.

 

Crusaders must be of a Lawful or Chaotic alignment.

 

Advantages:

-  May wear any armor

-  Can wield any weapon

-  Can achieve mastery in any weapon

-  THAC0 improves as a fighter (+1 for every level of experience)

 

Disadvantages:

-  Cannot Turn Undead

 

Sphere Access:

-  Major access to the spheres of all, combat, guardian, healing, war, and wards

-  Minor access to the spheres of necromantic, and protection

-  No access to the spheres of animal, astral, chaos, charm, creation, divination, elemental, law, numbers, plant, summoning, sun, thought, time, travelers, or weather

 

 

Elith: I'm afraid the position of chaotic good male elven ranger is already taken by Kivan . I wouldn't be quite so opposed if he were a she, since no other mod I know of has a female ranger in it, and I've always wanted to have one in the party . BTW we've already created all the new LoI ranger kits, and there are couple of elf-only ones, namely the Bowslinger and Wilderness, so s/he could perhaps use one of these.

 

 

Echtellion: Although we already plan to include a fighter/mage, the current one is a half-elf and is entirely unique in his personality and abilities, so they shouldn't prove too similar.

 

 

Radgast Spellstorm: A good aligned single class mage is certainly something the game could do with .

 

 

One thing we could really do with is more evil NPCs, but I gather you prefer to write good aligned characters. If anyone else out there is willing to try your hand at something dark, I would really love to have an assassin monk (a new kit we're adding) character... devil:

 

 

Regarding the files, you can send stuff to nickATfrad.org (replace the AT with an @), but I can only recieve attachments under 2 megabytes or so. If there's anything larger than that, I'm planning to set up my own ftp server sometime reasonably soon, so you'll be able to upload it there.

[Ellderon]

Selecting kits in a stronghold sounds excellent!

 

Since when is having more NPC's a bad idea? So what if you have tons of them? Who cares? So what If you have more than 1 of one type? That's what kit's are for? People LOVE npc's

 

I allready made Aquae and Thalia charachters (as player charachters) and gave them specific items.

Now I have to convert them to .cre format (Once I get java) and start scriptin...And I found good portraits too (just having them tweaked)

And....deomonic ancestors?

 

Since many things can be selectabe at startup (like armor system and weapon restriction), why not go a step further and have a race realistic option too.

By that I mean you can have more realistic races/subraces, with more apprent differences. I allways found it lame that all races are so balanced - in a real world that would never be, and this IS a ROLE Playing Game, which means people play certain races coause they like them, not couse they are better.

Anyway, if you think everyone would now select an elf with +2 to dex, +1 to int and other super modifiers, it can be easily balanced by having opponents that use it's disadvantages better OR by simple having a script give you harder opponents if you play a stronger race...

 

Crusaider sounds nice, but still...don't you have some kit that is even more paladin like? (the char MUST be good.....Yes, I for one never saw why a apaladin must be LAWFULL good, nor why the elves are CHAOTIC good..for crying out luod, they have less crime and live far more peacfully than humans)

 

And yes, I'm a good-do-gooder kind of person. Finished BG2 at least 10 times...only once I played a bady and it lasted for an hour...Just can get into the roll...

 

If the file ends up too big, I'll upload it to my webspace and give you the link...