Confusion over Katana and Bastard Swords

[Storm Rider]

I installed the component in the Tweak Pack that updates all katana and bastard swords to need two hands to use. I also selected the option to update all the text. As far as I know the installation was successful (it didn't say otherwise in the log files) but I don't think it has worked properly. If I right-click on the katana that my main character has, the text says it requires one hand. I can also equip a shield. As I am still learning how to play the game, I decided to click on Use Item in the main game screen and saw the katana there. I clicked on that and heard a noise as if magic had been cast. The weapon disappeard from the quick weapon slot and only fists were available. I checked my character's inventory and the katana was still there but in the backpack area. Once trying to put it back in his hand, the game said it wasn't possible as it was a two handed weapon. I had to remove the shield to let him equip it. The text still said one handed, however.

 

The weird thing was it didn't stay that way. I equipped another sword and then put the katana back in. Once again it was one handed and I could fit a shield.

 

I'm not sure what the Tweak Pack component actually does now but for my initial character skills I decided on choosing one handed and two handed weapon skills because I wasn't sure how many hands katana need (in the game). Ideally I don't want my character to use shields at all as I would like him to be able to parry and block (to a certain extent) with just the katana. After all, medieval samurai only carried the sword.

 

In the unmodded game, are katana and bastard swords meant to be single handed? With the Tweak Pack does it completely change them to two handed or just alter animations? I'm guessing it hasn't installed properly but I am loathe to reinstall the entire thing, seeing as it took an hour to install each component and I have spent enough time trying to get all the mods on (see my other thread for the fun and games).

 

Regards.

[Kish]

In the unmodded game, are katana and bastard swords meant to be single handed?

Yes.

[Storm Rider]

What is more baffling is that I just went back into the game and the katana has stayed two handed. The paperdoll now only shows a two handed great sword instead of the katana. That said, the weapon details text still says one handed weapon type.

[Miloch]

With the Tweak Pack does it completely change them to two handed or just alter animations?

The Tweak Pack adds an ability to bastard swords and katanas that lets you toggle between 1- and 2-handed mode (see rule changes).

[Storm Rider]

A few things here:

 

First of all how do I swap back and forth between one or two handed use (which backpack icon?)? If I can swap back and forth, is it really just a cosmetic or do you get bonuses using it one way or the other?

 

Second, now that I don't know if BG2 is slightly confused over whether one or two hands are needed (I know I am), what skills do I need to increase to get better use with the katana? Single handed weapon use or two handed weapon use?

 

Third, why can't a monk use two-handed weapons? I can understand the standard monk not having a skill in that but what about Kensai? Can they use them? It would seem silly if they cannot use a katana.

 

Lastly, I thought Bastard swords as a general rule were swords that could be wielded one handed by larger and stronger users? Weren't they half way in length between long swords and great swords but with only shorter handles? I don't know a lot about these blades from real history though.

[berelinde]

A few things here:

 

First of all how do I swap back and forth between one or two handed use (which backpack icon?)?

 

Select a character. On the lower panel of the screen, you will see a row of icons that could include spells, bard song, thieving abilities, the quick slot items, and the gold star you use to access granted powers like cleric kit powers and berserker rage. Somewhere around the middle of that bar is an icon shaped more like a belt-pouch than a backpack, but it's supposed to be a backpack. *That.*

 

If I can swap back and forth, is it really just a cosmetic or do you get bonuses using it one way or the other?

 

From the readme, I get the impression that it's just cosmetic, which is a shame. I do not think you would be able to use the bonuses from 2-handed weapon fighting style (although you might!), nor do I believe it does more damage (which maybe it should, because you can put more muscle into it). But the readme says both versions are the same.

 

Second, now that I don't know if BG2 is slightly confused over whether one or two hands are needed (I know I am), what skills do I need to increase to get better use with the katana? Single handed weapon use or two handed weapon use?

 

I'd kind of like to know that myself.

 

Third, why can't a monk use two-handed weapons? I can understand the standard monk not having a skill in that but what about Kensai? Can they use them? It would seem silly if they cannot use a katana.

 

Monks can't use quarter-staves? That sounds wrong.

 

Lastly, I thought Bastard swords as a general rule were swords that could be wielded one handed by larger and stronger users? Weren't they half way in length between long swords and great swords but with only shorter handles? I don't know a lot about these blades from real history though.

 

In real history, no one called them bastard swords. That's a modern term used to describe a big sword that isn't quite big enough to necessitate two-handed use. The grip was long enough to get two hands on it, but the same could be said for most swords, if nothing else from a balance perspective. I'm always a bit hazy about the difference between a longsword and a bastard sword.

 

Given some time, maybe Miloch, the man with the photos, can provide some examples for our edification.

[Miloch]

First of all how do I swap back and forth between one or two handed use (which backpack icon?)?

This I can't answer, as I haven't personally tested this component (I'm only aware of what it does via work on items).

If I can swap back and forth, is it really just a cosmetic or do you get bonuses using it one way or the other? Second, now that I don't know if BG2 is slightly confused over whether one or two hands are needed (I know I am), what skills do I need to increase to get better use with the katana? Single handed weapon use or two handed weapon use?

I assume this is the reason for the component - when you use it one-handed, single weapon or sword/shield applies; 2-handed for that mode.

Third, why can't a monk use two-handed weapons? I can understand the standard monk not having a skill in that but what about Kensai? Can they use them? It would seem silly if they cannot use a katana.

The manual states "A monk can only use weapons available to the thief class (except two-handed)." AFAIK, kensai should be able to use katanas (whether 1- or 2-handed).

Lastly, I thought Bastard swords as a general rule were swords that could be wielded one handed by larger and stronger users? Weren't they half way in length between long swords and great swords but with only shorter handles? I don't know a lot about these blades from real history though.

Essentially correct. They were known as "hand-and-a-half swords," referring to the hilt size (and thus the fact they could be wielded either 1- or 2-handed).

 

Edit: @berelinde - actually the term 'bastard sword' (espée bastarde) originated around the 15th century. There isn't a huge difference between them and longswords - basically, it's just bigger (hilt, blade, crossguards). Not the best example but:

While both of these could be bastard swords, the one on the left is closer probably. A longsword hilt tends to have a less-wide crossguard.

[NiGHTMARE]

From the readme, I get the impression that it's just cosmetic, which is a shame. I do not think you would be able to use the bonuses from 2-handed weapon fighting style (although you might!), nor do I believe it does more damage (which maybe it should, because you can put more muscle into it). But the readme says both versions are the same.

 

IIRC, the engine automatically applies the fighting style proficiencies, so *any* two-handed weapon will benefit from the two-handed fighting style.

 

Incidentally, in pnp there are differences between wielding the bastard sword one-handed and two-handed; as well as damage, speed factor is also affected. There's no reason these pnp rules couldn't be extended to the katana, and implemented for this tweak.

 

Monks can't use quarter-staves? That sounds wrong.

 

Monks have an invisible, unremovable item in their off-hand weapon slot. This is there for purely technical reasons, allowing them to kill enemies with their fists (if it weren't, they'd only ever be able to knock enemies unconscious).

[Storm Rider]

Hopefully, Kensai don't get those restrictions with the two-handed swords. A person that is one with his sword and has devoted his/her life to using it, would be much less effective and contradicting to their skills if they are handicapped using such devices.

 

I'll have to keep an eye on the differences between single and two handed use of the katana. Seeing as I won't be using a shield, it will be important to see whether the Tweak Pack changes are just cosmetic or does let BG2 automatically use the correct skill for the weapon.

 

I'd like to get a book on all of the swords from history, as there are so many (Jane's Medieval Swords, or something ). I haven't seen any around and the details of some weapons end up being a whole book in themselves (Japanese blades for example). I do remember, as a child, when I first heard the term "bastard sword". Back then I didn't know what it was, other than think it was especially designed for killing bastards . It's ironic that that isn't too far from the truth.

[Miloch]

Well, the kensai is actually a fighter kit (though it may seem similar to a monk). AFAIK they don't have any melee weapon restrictions (just armour and missile weapon restrictions).

[Storm Rider]

I do believe it is only a cosmetic now. Unless I was looking in the wrong place, I checked the THAC0 and it didn't change when altering the amount of hands needed. I need to check out other characters and different swords though to be sure.

[CamDawg]

It is purely cosmetic; the big difference between a one-handed and two-handed katana/bastard sword is which weapon styles apply to them. The reason is that a number of fuddy duddies like myself are so irked that you can run around with a katana with one hand (or worse, in the offhand)--if you've ever trained with them, you'd know this is damn near impossible with few exceptions.

 

The descriptions are not updated. When you change from one- to two-handed versions the weapon is moved to inventory, mainly because it's impossible to create in the correct weapon slot and also because changing from a 1H to 2H weapon with a shield or offhand weapon will crash the game. As NiGHTMARE mentioned, monks have an invisible offhand weapon which is why they can not use the 2H versions.

 

As for introducing differences between the two... it's an idea I've long considered but never implemented. Ideally I'd like to see the strength requirements for the 1H versions (and dex, too, in the case of katanas) be substantially higher while also lowering their melee damage.

[Storm Rider]

That would make a lot of sense if it could be applied.

 

There seems to be an actual bug though that I have witnessed, at least in my game. I saw there was a problem with bastard swords and katana only costing 1 gold piece when trying to sell them. Resting was supposed to correct the problem, according to the ReadMe. So far, that has proved ineffective. I have a Bastard Sword+1 that just will not change its value. I'll probably just sell it to clear out the space but money is always nice to have in the game. I'm still generally starting out but I am looking with a drooling mouth at some of the really juicy looking items on offer at the stores.

[NiGHTMARE]

Incidentally, these are the pnp values for the bastard sword:

 

1H - speed factor 6, damage 1d8

2H - speed factor 8, damage 2d4

 

Oddly enough, the bastard swords in umodded BG2 uses the values for the two-handed version even though they're one-handed .

[Storm Rider]

What are the differences when it comes to dice damage? If one does 1D8 and the other does 2D4, are they the same other than the 2D4 having higher minimum damage?