Familiars (Workroom)

[Salk]

So far the majority is neutral about the extra HP to the caster and contrary to the Con penalty at the death of the Familiar.

We already discussed the "extra hit points" feature here, and I'm really against it.

 

Yes, I re-read the arguments and I think we didn't move much from our respective positions but that's okay.

 

What I can say is that I understand that removing the HP bonus to the familiar summoner calls also for removing the Constitution and HP loss as well because the core reason behind the HP bonus was the physical bondage that the spell FF creates between summoner and familiar. You take away one side, then you take away everything. Although I am still against such a revision (most likely I will find a way to tweak it to my own preference).

[Demivrgvs]

I have no doubt that the Current hit point penalty would be much worse for me, I do not object it. As long as it has some limitations(5 or 10 hit points max), and no I do not wish it to increase in levels as that absurd.

I though about something like 2d4 points of stunning damage. I don't want a 2nd lvl mage to die simply because the familiar died, but the shock may indeed knock him unconscious imo.

 

Shall the Rangers have pets too, eventually? In higher levels... and the kits could also have different possibilities. Yes, they need few, and like demons more is always better!

I don't think rangers will have an animal companion, as I think such feature will be a unique advantage of the Beastmaster kit.

 

So far the majority is neutral about the extra HP to the caster and contrary to the Con penalty at the death of the Familiar.

We already discussed the "extra hit points" feature here, and I'm really against it.

Yes, I re-read the arguments and I think we didn't move much from our respective positions but that's okay.

 

What I can say is that I understand that removing the HP bonus to the familiar summoner calls also for removing the Constitution and HP loss as well because the core reason behind the HP bonus was the physical bondage that the spell FF creates between summoner and familiar. You take away one side, then you take away everything. Although I am still against such a revision (most likely I will find a way to tweak it to my own preference).

Well, I don't agree with this either. I think it still makes sense to have an Empathic Link which causes the master a physical shock when the familiar die. At the same time I really don't understand why such link should grant the caster more hit points...

 

Anyway, if players prefer to skip both features I don't have too much problems.

 

To summarize the reasons why I'm against additional hit poits:

- unfairness (only charname get those hp, making the effect extremely unfair to Edwin, Imoen, Aerie, Nalia and 99,9% of mages in the game)

- "unbalancing" effect (low hp is one of the most important disadvantages of mages, and this effects reduces it a lot. F/M with additional hp via familiar is even more unfair)

[Salk]

So far the majority is neutral about the extra HP to the caster and contrary to the Con penalty at the death of the Familiar.

We already discussed the "extra hit points" feature here, and I'm really against it.

Yes, I re-read the arguments and I think we didn't move much from our respective positions but that's okay.

 

What I can say is that I understand that removing the HP bonus to the familiar summoner calls also for removing the Constitution and HP loss as well because the core reason behind the HP bonus was the physical bondage that the spell FF creates between summoner and familiar. You take away one side, then you take away everything. Although I am still against such a revision (most likely I will find a way to tweak it to my own preference).

Well, I don't agree with this either. I think it still makes sense to have an Empathic Link which causes the master a physical shock when the familiar die. At the same time I really don't understand why such link should grant the caster more hit points...

 

Anyway, if players prefer to skip both features I don't have too much problems.

 

 

I don't agree conceptually. The link can't cause physical distress to one side (constitution loss and/or hit points loss) at the death of the familiar and at the same time, grant the familiar exceptional physical qualities while alive. It's obvious that the familiar's exceptional hit points (because cats don't have 24 Hit Points otherwise) is due to a special physical enhancement that I see as a blood pact between two material beings via the power of a spell and, working in symbiosis, it should affect the summoner as well, giving benefits and not only penalty.

 

I can't think of something more unfair than this.

 

To summarize the reasons why I'm against additional hit poits:

- unfairness (only charname get those hp, making the effect extremely unfair to Edwin, Imoen, Aerie, Nalia and 99,9% of mages in the game)

 

The limitation to one familiar per party is obviously dictated by gameplay reasons. It would be 1) problematic to handle a wide number of familiars and 2) unbalancing at the same time.

 

One point that you seem to neglect is that you sort of put in competition CHARNAME and his/her party while instead it's a cooperation we are speaking about (even though each has his own goal, they all have an interest in being as strong as possible together). It's like telling me that my teammates complain because one of them is able to help the team being better.

 

- "unbalancing" effect (low hp is one of the most important disadvantages of mages, and this effects reduces it a lot. F/M with additional hp via familiar is even more unfair)

 

This is true if the amount of HPs granted is balance breaking.

 

But noone is asking for such a thing. It could really be a mere symbolic increase. I am not trying to convince anyone here. I am just telling that I personally still think that the spell's core value would be in this way completely overrruled.

 

So far, except for Jarno, it seems to me that those that gave feedback said they were "neutral" to this subject, meaning that both arguments have valid points. It's just two different philosophies. I would stick to the 2nd Ed. Find Familiar (which is what Baldur's Gate adopted) while instead you and Jarno believe that the 3rd edition is the ideal source.

[Guest Cryingwolf86]

Just thought I would add my opinion to the mix...

 

The way I think familiars should work is as a kind of extension of, and life long companion to the caster.

 

I have always thought they were underpowered. I would just like to see the familiars be able to go through the game and be useful the whole way. They should be able to cast decent level combat and defensive spells from over its owner's shoulder as a kind of fire support (at least for the ones that would use spells like the Pseudo Dragon or Imp.) Of course the spells would depend on the caster/familiar level.

 

As far as familiar death goes, they are linked through mind and emotion, so if the familiar dies, their should be some kind of harsh (but maybe not permanent) effect on the caster, for instance 50% total hp loss (possible death as a result) and confusion for a time, something like what happens when someone discovers their spouse has just died... that kind of effect. The caster would have to re-summon the familiar later.

 

Btw... I am not so much of a purest... I just want the game to be fun.

[DarkWon]

Cool, removing the Con drain from Familiar dying is a great idea!

 

It always seemed silly that a Familiar was useless in combat because of that. I don't see why they should give extra HP either

 

:p

 

Edit: to Salk. Why would taking a chunk of your life force and molding it into a Familiar "increase" your overall life force?! if anything it should decrease it or stay the same.

[Salk]

Edit: to Salk. Why would taking a chunk of your life force and molding it into a Familiar "increase" your overall life force?! if anything it should decrease it or stay the same.

 

It doesn't work like that.

 

The link is fully symbiotic. The life force transfer is two ways and benefits both, as I have already said. In fact, the base HP a familiar has is augmented (you don't believe cats get 24 HPs normally, do you) and so should the caster's. The Constitution penalty in this context is more than legitimate.

 

I will be twaeking the spell once it is out to conform to this vision, which is the vision adopted by Baldur's Gate and AD&D 2nd. edition. Enough said.

[DarkWon]

Actually yeah, after thinking about it for a while I can see how it could be symbiotic relationship. I still don't think it's death would hurt their physical body, just be more like a emotional/spiritual damage, and take them some time to get over..but I can see how you could justify some extra HP

[Salk]

Actually yeah, after thinking about it for a while I can see how it could be symbiotic relationship. I still don't think it's death would hurt their physical body, just be more like a emotional/spiritual damage, and take them some time to get over..but I can see how you could justify some extra HP

 

The death of the familiar needs to cause a major penalty to the caster due to shock. And that translates into a Constitution and HP loss. While the HP loss is perfectly reasonable (losing those extra HPs related to the bond with the familiar), I guess something better than a Consitution loss might be thought of. Perhaps a dizzy-like effect for a number of rounds, incapacitating the caster under that period.

[Demivrgvs]

Edit: to Salk. Why would taking a chunk of your life force and molding it into a Familiar "increase" your overall life force?! if anything it should decrease it or stay the same.

It doesn't work like that.

 

The link is fully symbiotic. The life force transfer is two ways and benefits both, as I have already said. In fact, the base HP a familiar has is augmented (you don't believe cats get 24 HPs normally, do you) and so should the caster's.

It's clearly a matter of tastes, and I do prefer 3rd edition familiars. The part which makes little sense to me is this "The life force transfer is two ways and benefits both, as I have already said". The caster transfers his life force to the familar and ends up with more life force than before?!

 

Cats don't get 24 hit points normally, but this is clearly not a normal cat, and not only because I'm going to replace it with the Elven Cat. This cat gets more hit points because it travels along with the mage, and through the telepatic connection the cat has a higher self consciousness, a better comprehension of the world and can learn much more things (in PnP the familiar is a special version of the normal creature with a higher INT score granted by the link), granting it the ability to "level up". Level ups grant the cat additional hit points imo, not a sort of reversed-Larloch's Minor Drain.

 

The way I see it the connection is only telepatic, not physical.

[Salk]

The way I see it the connection is only telepatic, not physical.

 

I think this is the dividing point.

 

I see it as a mental and physicial connection. You and the 3rd Edition guys do not.

 

Taking the elven cat as term of paragon is a bit unfair as in the vanilla game, the cat is a normal cat and it does have an exceptional amount of hit points (and so the ferret and the rabbit, which are normal animals). The HP increase is initial so not justified by any level up of sort. In PnP (still 2nd ed.), the familiar would also grant a limited amount of Magic Resistance to the caster.

 

I don't actually see the caster transferring his own life force to the animal (in that case, Dark Won would be just right pretending that the caster total HP's should be diminished!) but rather the bless of life force coming from the spell itself, on a natural basis (the life force is granted by nature upon which the spell calls). Note that this theory works in the sense that once the bond is broken, the extra life force is returned to nature (from which caster and familiar borrow).

[Taimon]

Dropping this here again, in case SR wants to play with it:

Find Familiar is more versatile than one might think.

 

In the GAM file there is an additional section after the standard familiars.

+0x48 is a file offset to a resref table.

Starting at +0x4C is a 9 x 9 array of dwords. They "keys" are alignment x mage level and the value indicates how many resref to read for that combination. (from the resref table)

So the first value says how many familiars are in the "lawful good (level 1)" list, the second "lawful good (level 2)", the tenth "lawful neutral (level 1)" and so on.

 

When Find Familiar is invoked it first checks if there are any familiars in the relevant list. If so, it chooses one at random and removes it from the list. It will default to the standard familiars, if the list is empty.

[Salk]

Well, almost 11 months passed since we started this thread and well over one year since we started talking about revising familiars.

 

I hope we can restart this discussion soon after IR v3.

[Demivrgvs]

Well, almost 11 months passed since we started this thread and well over one year since we started talking about revising familiars.

 

I hope we can restart this discussion soon after IR v3.

I don't think it will be so "soon" because after releasing IR v3 I'll take some "rest", as I've an incredibly busy month ahead. I'll obviously be around (for hotfixes and discussions), but my modding time will be very limited, and I'll probably release few "parts" of KR before starting to work on SR v4.

 

I've so many projects to work on and so little time...

[Shaitan]

Yeah, and we are glad for what you do Demi, RL is however most important.

[Salk]

I don't think it will be so "soon" because after releasing IR v3 I'll take some "rest", as I've an incredibly busy month ahead. I'll obviously be around (for hotfixes and discussions), but my modding time will be very limited, and I'll probably release few "parts" of KR before starting to work on SR v4.

 

I've so many projects to work on and so little time...

 

Take all the time you need and know that we are all very grateful.