Familiars (Workroom)

[Demivrgvs]

After over two years since Demi started this topic, we can finally resume work on the revised Find Familiar spell!

Oh my...my worst nightmare.

 

Does this mean NPCs will finally be able to cast Find Familiar?

For balance reasons I'd say no.

[SixOfSpades]

I'll bet most of this stuff is already covered above in the thread, but regardless, here's the most important Familiars stuff I'd like to see.

 

1) Foremost, Find Familiar ceases to be any sort of Wizard (or Beast Master) spell at all, and instead becomes a direct side effect of losing your soul in Spellhold. I know this will be an unpopular idea (particularly those itching to have familiars in Tutu), but there has to be a reason that only Charname can have a familiar, and the Bhaal essence is the only thing that makes sense. We know that Charname instictively throws up protective cocoons when under plot-related threat (the "Transformation & the Dream" sequence, the party's trip to Hell, and of course the Pocket Plane), so it seems logical that Charname would be able to pre-emptively shunt off part of his soul into an external well.

 

2) The player can choose which specific familiar they get at the time of summoning; any PC of any class or alignment should be able to choose from at least 4 creatures, each of which could benefit the party in different ways (such as the classic archetypes of Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Mage), allowing the player to shore up relative weaknesses in party makeup--which carries the metagaming benefit of increasing flexibility in NPC selection. For instance, a player who loves having an archer-type in the group might "need" Mazzy in every game, but if he could get a Kobold Commando or Hobgoblin Archer for a familiar, he could use Mazzy's slot for somebody else.

[Constantine]

I'll bet most of this stuff is already covered above in the thread, but regardless, here's the most important Familiars stuff I'd like to see.

 

1) Foremost, Find Familiar ceases to be any sort of Wizard (or Beast Master) spell at all, and instead becomes a direct side effect of losing your soul in Spellhold. I know this will be an unpopular idea (particularly those itching to have familiars in Tutu), but there has to be a reason that only Charname can have a familiar, and the Bhaal essence is the only thing that makes sense. We know that Charname instictively throws up protective cocoons when under plot-related threat (the "Transformation & the Dream" sequence, the party's trip to Hell, and of course the Pocket Plane), so it seems logical that Charname would be able to pre-emptively shunt off part of his soul into an external well.

 

Let's just say I don't like it. It seems, uh, unconvincing. And besides, the mage (forgot his name) on the second floor of the Den of Seven Vales has a familiar, and he's obviously not a child of Bhaal.

[Dakk]

.. and the procedure of acquiring a familiar is extremely well established in D&D - we should stick to that. =)

[Salk]

Yes, I agree with Costantine and Dakk.

[Demivrgvs]

Yes, I agree with Costantine and Dakk.

Let's just say I wouldn't want to turn familiars into NWN-like companions available to all classes. I do prefer to remain relatively close to PnP whenever I can.

[SixOfSpades]

And besides, the mage (forgot his name) on the second floor of the Den of Seven Vales has a familiar, and he's obviously not a child of Bhaal.

How do you know he's not? Facetiousness aside, any system (no matter how reputable) that says an Invoker can have a little fluffy bunny for a pet while a friggin' Druid can't have any kind of animal companion at all is automatically suspect. Probably even more suspect than the "soul-storage vessel" idea I posted above.

 

Seriously, compared to the NPCs, what are the benefits to being Charname?

1) The mystical, time-warping power of Reload (cannot be seen in-game, as it's the very definition of metagaming)

2) You can roll your own stats (again, not exactly something the NPCs can observe & discuss)

3) You develop some Bhaalspawn abilities in BG1, which are then taken away & replaced with a Slayer Change which is . . . sub-optimal, to say the least. And then, when you get your soul back, you don't even regain your Bhaalspawn powers.

Apart from that, Charname is just like any other party member. He just has slightly better stats and never actually dies.

 

I don't want to keep banging this same drum, nor is it my goal to work against canon D&D rules, it just seems to me that making the Familiar a manifestation of Charname's soul is the natural way to reconcile the two 'problems' of "what's so great about being a Bhaalspawn" and "why can only the PC have a Familiar" at the same time.

[Jarno Mikkola]

2) You can roll your own stats (again, not exactly something the NPCs can observe & discuss)

The benefit at this point is a little larger than just stats... it's choosing a class of your own, kits, 5 other party members... the ability to become immortal if so is wished in any other case than that of a BSoD.

[Guest Guest_Aranthys_*]

I've taken a look at the familiar script, and here's how I'd do it :

- create an addiional familiar for Neutral Good characters

- make ALL familiars into mage / thief. Depending on their kind, they'll have either good spells/abilities OR good thieving abilities OR good melee abilities

- multiply the familiar CRE to have 1 CRE for each 5 mage level, max at level 30.

- make the spell only summon the basic CRE

- have an additional dialogue option that looks like "come here, I'll lend you some of my strength"

- when this option is used, the familiar cre is replaced by the *level XX* familiar CRE

- of course, existing familiar items have to be multiplicated and scripts have to be adapted to account for all these new cre.

 

What this brings :

- Levelling familiars : they stay usefull throughout the game

- Weaker level 1 familiars (balance for tutu/bgt)

[Guest Guest_Aranthys_*]

How, and additional information :

 

I'd advice against making the familiars too powerfull, even in ToB.

They should mostly be there as additions to the group, that you probably keep out of the very big dangerous fights.

 

- "Thieving" familiars are usefull to solo wizards / small parties without thieves, and can't disarm traps anyway (if I'm not mistaken ?) Their spells should mostly help them be scouts & utility tools to the party.

 

- "Wizardly" familiars shouldn't have a lot of spells, and definately nothing that can affect the course of battle too much. They should be able to provide deception spells, status spells (chaos & so on) or buffing / healing / restoration spells (If we use your LG archon familiar )

 

- "Fighting" familiars should of course not deal much damage, but should cause status effects (sleep on hit, poison, confusion on hit & so on). Their spells/abilities should probably help them in this department.

 

There's no need to alter the familiars too much either, they're not supposed to be powerhouse, but small creatures that help their master by providing advices and running small tasks.

[Guest niebezimienny]

Here are some thoughts I have on the topic of familiars. I must admit, I haven't read the entire discussion, so I'm sorry if there are some repeats.

 

First of all, I would like to suggest that all familiars have the same amount of hp (at least eventually). Or perhaps an optional component that would ensure that. Let's face it, as it is, familiars spend 99.9% of their existence in the PC's backpack, having been summoned only for the passive HP bonus in the first place. Their main use is out of combat, for their thieving skills, sometimes to buff or scout around invisible, but that's it. I think their abilities should be designed with that in mind, being able to cast out-of-combat buff spells like 'friends', 'invisibility globe', 'luck' or 'detect traps', 'know alignment' etc etc.

I think their combat abilities should be minimal, and defensive, if anything. High magic/physical resistance, very low armor class (they are pretty small after all) would be of help to lone mages but not terribly useful for mages travelling with a full party. Having one who could detect and even disarm traps would make solo sorcerer playthroughs much more fun (especially with knock having been reworked to be actually worth a level 2 pick). Perhaps a built in 'talent tree', accessed by talking to the familiar, would be something to consider. It would make alignment purely an RP choice (when it comes to familiar at least). On the initial casting of find familiar, you would get a menu, not unlike Wish, where you would choose a familiar and assign him some initial abilities. As your character gains levels, you can talk to your pet and teach him (or "enchant" him with) some new tricks. You could reset his skills by offering some gems and a generic magical item (for instance).

[n-ghost]

I have feeling that this was suggested years ago, but still, just want to point out that pseudo dragon needs to be nerfed first.

 

It's helpful, sure, but it soloed entire BG1 part of BGT for me >,>

 

Not to mention some enemy AI issues that currently are discussed here: http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=23607

 

Replacing 'unconscious' ability with something confusion-like (still interrupt, but target at least won't be helpless and still will have AC) shoud be fine.

[Incantatar]

I have feeling that this was suggested years ago, but still, just want to point out that pseudo dragon needs to be nerfed first.

 

It's helpful, sure, but it soloed entire BG1 part of BGT for me >,>

 

Try doing that without reloading when it dies or with SCS.

[n-ghost]

The worst thing is, I do it just like that

 

 

(by now my mage dies with it ofc, but it happens like once pet ten encounters or 3 locations, and only if I get lucky crit chain from multiple mobs. Hell, it even regenerates to full health in matter of seconds.)

 

(mind that I have nothing against AC, it's fine, but perma-disable is just too much, especially on mages)

[Incantatar]

The worst thing is, I do it just like that

 

When you play solo, your familiar will die when you let it fight for you. It has no protection against crits and measly HP. The consequence is your PC loses constitution. The risk isn't worth it without cheesy reloading. There is nothing overpowered here since there is no way an intelligent mage would even let it get in a fight in the first place. They have their uses when your enemies are disabled or you need to scout but that's it.