Kit Revisions (Rangers)

[Mike1072]

SCS (not sure about RR) actually takes into account SR's Glitterdust using a local variable

Both do.

[Demivrgvs]

Quarry

@Mike, thanks for confirming RR too can handle SR's Glitterdust.

 

On a side note, perhaps I'm too much worried, but do you think Quarry has the potential to remain a cool ability even if it cannot be used while hiding in shadows?

Yeah, for as long as "Know oponnent" doesn't keep resistance-lowering feature. My bigger concern about it (as it is now) is that it makes Tracking skill pretty useless.

Wait a second...your last statement made me realize one possible solution.

 

Technically:

- add to the current Tracking two cast spells effects (let's call them A and B)

- spell A makes everyone immune to spell B

- spell B reveals invisible targets with a much higher % chance (100% might be too much, doubled % could be fine instead)

- Quarry makes the selected victim immune to spell A

The end result should be that only the target of Quarry is affected by spell B, and thus ranger's selected Quarry isn't immune to invisibility anymore, but can be quickly re-tracked again each round. Doesn't it sound cool?

Edited December 8, 2013 by Demivrgvs

[yarpen]

I'd say Quarry is a failed experiment. Just make Tracking harder, better and stronger.

[kreso]

Quarry

Doesn't it sound cool?

It does now that I finally understood (I just woke up, and couldn't comprehend when I first read it ).

What I'd suggest is also to make "pause caster" time longer, 2 rounds maybe?

I kind of envisioned Quarry as a "process", not a quick scan of the enemy. It would be cool if the ranger could keep Stealth active, but since this is hardcoded as rock I'm all for taking what can be given.

It could perhaps be made as a Contingency-enemy sighted-nearest enemy, I think you'd keep invisibility same as mages can, at least for a while. Not that it's the greatest of ideas anyway .

[Kalindor]

Technically:

- add to the current Tracking two cast spells effects (let's call them A and B)

- spell A makes everyone immune to spell B

- spell B reveals invisible targets with a much higher % chance (100% might be too much, doubled % could be fine instead)

- Quarry makes the selected victim immune to spell A

The end result should be that only the target of Quarry is affected by spell B, and thus ranger's selected Quarry isn't immune to invisibility anymore, but can be quickly re-tracked again each round. Doesn't it sound cool?

 

This is pretty neat because you can make Quarry add any kind of additional effects to Tracking. Cool.

[Ardanis]

Technically:

- add to the current Tracking two cast spells effects (let's call them A and B)

- spell A makes everyone immune to spell B

- spell B reveals invisible targets with a much higher % chance (100% might be too much, doubled % could be fine instead)

- Quarry makes the selected victim immune to spell A

So you've finally decided to make a use of such trick? Good, I haven't been telling you about it for nothing then

[yarpen]

Actually, there's one nice solution to the whole Quarry thing.

Make it grant penalties for... for example 4 rounds. But make it prevent opponents from going invisible just for 1 round. For how long you can track someone who becomes invisible? Not for so long, right? Right.

 

 

QUARRY: Ranger studies the opponent, which after short delay will have severe conseqences on foe's fighting prowress.

At level 1, grants -2 penalty to Attack Rolls for 4 rounds.

At level 7, makes opponent unable to become invisible for 1 round.

At level 15, grants -2 penalty to Armor Class and Saving Throws for 4 rounds.

 

The level 1 and level 15 effects do suck a dick tho. Thought about -1 penalty to Attack Rolls and AC at level 1, and -2 penalty to all saving throws at level 15. Or even -4.

 

- It doesn't ruin the lives of low-level mages and thieves.

- Gives at least some kind of counterplay to both sides (I can prevent you from becoming invisible and running away -- the restriction lasts just 1 round so it's ok for mages)

- Is as cool as Combat Maneuvre/Called Hit.

 

Also, I'd rather ask than not as Ardanis is apparently a god of finding a quirky solutions...

is there a possibility of giving Ranger an ability that dispels invisibility, but no matter the source (Hide in Shadows, 2nd level Invisibility) it reveals opponent in the same way as being revealed after Improved Invisibility does? I mean the AC penalty + being untargetable. I doubt it's possible, but I guess that'd leave the whole system much more balanced (hey, SCS cares about being untargetable and hard to hit, right?).

Edited December 16, 2013 by yarpen

[Demivrgvs]

Quarry

Actually, there's one nice solution to the whole Quarry thing.

...

QUARRY: Ranger studies the opponent, which after short delay will have severe conseqences on foe's fighting prowress.

At level 1, grants -2 penalty to Attack Rolls for 4 rounds.

At level 7, makes opponent unable to become invisible for 1 round.

At level 15, grants -2 penalty to Armor Class and Saving Throws for 4 rounds.

Perhaps it is just me, but I really don't see how reducing "immunity to invisibility" duration down to 1 round can be cooler than the solution I described above (making Quarry double the chance of being detected by Tracking).

 

I'm curious to know other players opinion, but personally I don't feel like Quarry should lower target's saves. Otoh, I may be more inclined to use such effect on SR's Know Opponent (making it a sort of Lesser Malison) and keep -10% physical resistance for Quarry, just to make the two abilities more differrent. Mmm...

 

That being said I do agree Quarry needs to scale with ranger's levels a little bit (e.g. starts as just -2 AC penalty then gains -10% physical resistance at level 9-11?). I do told testers the current ability was just a first draft, and that I put it there to see how it performed in general, before refining it depending on feedback.

 

Also, I'd rather ask than not as Ardanis is apparently a god of finding a quirky solutions...

@Arda, see what happens, you take credit for an idea and suddenly you take my throne of finding "crazy solutions". tsk Edited December 16, 2013 by Demivrgvs

[kreso]

Imo, the coolest effect for Quarry would be AC penalty, physical res penalty and additional +2 bonus to AC and saves vs all members of Quarry target race, like a version of Racial Enemy.

[Kalindor]

Quarry does need to improve with level, I agree. As much as I like the unable-to-hide mechanic (could be moved to HLA or Stalker-only), I do like making it interact with his Tracking ability. The more useful you can make Tracking and Quarry, the more useful and interesting the Ranger becomes.

[yarpen]

WOAH. Just had this idea.

What about removing protection from critiial strike from some of the targets at lategame version?

HEY, YOU ARE BASICALLY LOOKING FOR WEAK POINTS, RIGHT?

[Kalindor]

WOAH. Just had this idea.

What about removing protection from critiial strike from some of the targets at lategame version?

HEY, YOU ARE BASICALLY LOOKING FOR WEAK POINTS, RIGHT?

 

If that's possible, it would be pretty cool! Target losing their immunity to critical hits would be a unique effect that would become more powerful later in the game.

[yarpen]

Actually the best possible way of handling it would be giving you an your teammates increased critial strike chance against selected target, but I really doubt it if that's possible.

 

The "remove protection" way could be handled by doing some work involved with items that grant immunity to backstab against selected target.

 

Optionally, Quarry could be made into team buff.

"Grants +2 bonus to Attack Rolls and +10% increased critical strike chance and has increased chance to detect invisible opponents", but then it looses it's purpose of being "pick a person in a fight, it is screwed".

[Ardanis]

Also, I'd rather ask than not as Ardanis is apparently a god of finding a quirky solutions...

is there a possibility of giving Ranger an ability that dispels invisibility, but no matter the source (Hide in Shadows, 2nd level Invisibility) it reveals opponent in the same way as being revealed after Improved Invisibility does? I mean the AC penalty + being untargetable. I doubt it's possible, but I guess that'd leave the whole system much more balanced (hey, SCS cares about being untargetable and hard to hit, right?).

Should be easy, there's Force Visible opcode somewhere that doesn't dispel Imp Invis.

 

PS Wait, you mean even if it was non-improved invis, the target will nonetheless be revealed as under II. Not really possible, not in the least because II is a persistent effect unlike normal invis. Even if we were to do something like this (it might be doable, given some thought), it would still grant a free II effect out of nowhere. Not sure it'd be good.

 

@Arda, see what happens, you take credit for an idea and suddenly you take my throne of finding "crazy solutions". tsk

Since when it was *your* throne, to begin with? It was mine since '06, you're just catching up with me

Ouch, crap, we shouldn't be discussing such matters on public. People may think us unprofessional

 

WOAH. Just had this idea.

What about removing protection from critiial strike from some of the targets at lategame version?

HEY, YOU ARE BASICALLY LOOKING FOR WEAK POINTS, RIGHT?

Need to be a new BG2EE feature. Otherwise impossible. Edited December 17, 2013 by Ardanis

[Roar]

Just completed a run of BG1 enhanced edition using Kivan as an NPC True Ranger

 

Here is some feedback on the class:

 

- True Ranger should be able to wear plate mail? In my game he can’t, I’m not too sure why.

 

- I didn’t use tracking once. The idea is cool but 30% chance to detect is a bit low and I usually just cast detect magic when the enemy is invisible or stealth. Its a bit redundant for my game.

 

- Wild Empathy: Early game, this spell gives me some free meat shields (Bears). This is good but many times, while casting this spell at close range, Kivan is hit and interrupted. Once I have meat shields from monsters summoning and undead summoning, I stopped using this spell altogether.

 

 

Comments

 

I had Kivan in my party as a primary (ranged) striker role and he took out his targets as expected.

 

I love ‘Quarry’ and the idea behind it. In my game its working fine, some extra bonuses against one target. Removing invisibilty isnt a big issue for me. I dun see why marking in the first place will prevent a target from turning invisible. I also think that -10% physical resistance is too powerful, is it possible to have the Ranger deal 1d6 additional damage per hit on him? =)

 

True Ranger feels like a striker-ish class with default 2 pips in dual welding (in my case Kivan is always using range and range is high hit rate and damage in bgee 1), I like the idea with rangers restricted to armours up to chain mails only (no splint mail or plate mail), hence high offense, medium defense (high dpr, medium AC/hit points).

 

Anyway I run 4e as a DM so my opinions could be balanced towards that direction and not so much for 2e =)

 

Mods installed: Kit revision, item revision, SCS, BG2 tweak pack