Kit Revisions (Rangers)

[veyn]

Demivrgvs

Why do you say that exe hack can handle only paladin's kits? This stuff can even be stored in 2da if needed, with any combinations of classes/kits getting mage/priest spellcasting. Dual and multi classes can also be handled in whatever way is desired.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Demivrgvs

Why do you say that exe hack can handle only paladin's kits? This stuff can even be stored in 2da if needed, with any combinations of classes/kits getting mage/priest spellcasting. Dual and multi classes can also be handled in whatever way is desired.

Well if you look at the files involved, you see that the function that allows/denies the cleric table from the character interface is in the BGMain.exe ...

 

If you intended to quote the line where Demi said that the ranger will have the same progression as paladin... well that's just power balance thing... as in intended by Demi's tables, you can make your own of course...

Edited July 20, 2013 by Jarno Mikkola

[Demivrgvs]

Demivrgvs

Why do you say that exe hack can handle only paladin's kits? This stuff can even be stored in 2da if needed, with any combinations of classes/kits getting mage/priest spellcasting. Dual and multi classes can also be handled in whatever way is desired.

As Jarno says, enabling or disabling spellcasting cannot be done without touching the exe. Via 2da files you can tweak the spell progression and amount of spell memorizable, and even those are not kit-specific.

 

The additional problem with rangers is that they can dual/multi to cleric (why they can do that, and not dual/multi to druid is beyond my comprehension), thus if you disable ranger's spellcasting, you will prevent those class combinations from working.

[veyn]

I meant that one can make an exe hack which externalizes spellcasting restrictions to (new) 2da, similarly to what tobex already does for many other things; it doesn't have to be limited to paladin kits.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I meant that one can make an exe hack which externalizes spellcasting restrictions to (new) 2da, similarly to what tobex already does for many other things; it doesn't have to be limited to paladin kits.

Hell yeah, and let's force all classes to the starwars item restrictions... there's more than one kit mod that the new system needs to take into account. The system involving kit specific restriction is easier to handle without involving every other mod that has say paladins or rangers.

 

The additional problem with rangers is that they can dual/multi to cleric (why they can do that, and not dual/multi to druid is beyond my comprehension),

Well the simple explanation is that there's no Ranger/Druid class in the BG2 rule system... as having that class crashes the game... a Ranger/Druid(a cleric kit) is duable though, you just needs to make that druid kit from the creric, which is easy peachy.

[Ardanis]

I meant that one can make an exe hack which externalizes spellcasting restrictions to (new) 2da, similarly to what tobex already does for many other things; it doesn't have to be limited to paladin kits.

Neither of us possesses sufficient skill in programming to make it work reliably. I don't even know which offset to look for (GOG's exe is only 0x77a02d long) or if it was from debugger memory.

 

Second, assuming you were so kind as to provide a working patch, we still have to try minimizing the use of those not belonging to an established standard platform like ToBEx.

[veyn]

Ardanis

Here is a diff with latest tobex sources from git, with additional option to externalize spellcasting restrictions for paladin/ranger kits. If you guys are actually going to use that, we can ask Ascension64 to review that and add something similar to the next tobex release.

 

(btw, can't attach file to this post for some reason - keeps telling me I'm forbidden to do that)

[Demivrgvs]

Ardanis

Here is a diff with latest tobex sources from git, with additional option to externalize spellcasting restrictions for paladin/ranger kits. If you guys are actually going to use that, we can ask Ascension64 to review that and add something similar to the next tobex release.

 

(btw, can't attach file to this post for some reason - keeps telling me I'm forbidden to do that)

I'll wait for Arda to comment on this. Exe patching is way beyond my skills.

[Ardanis]

I've checked the ToBEx compile instruction, and I'm definitely not equipped with the necessary software to do it atm. Will see. Although I would certainly refrain from shipping a custom version of it.

[kreso]

Sorry for late reply, I haven't noticed you updated 1st post here. 2 cents on the matter:

 

True Ranger

..........

- At 1st level, the ranger gets two points in two-weapon fighting style.

- At 4th level, gains Divine Spellcasting.

- At 5th level, gains Woodland Stride.

- At 7th level, the ranger gains an additional half attack per round. This increases to a whole attack per round bonus at 13th level.

Sounds good for a start.

If I may make a suggestion - Rangers are usually portraited as lightly armored fighters, having a bow on their back and a weapon in each hand. To make class more appealing, why not give them *** in Bows? It would (imo) make sense that they're highly proficient with it.

 

TRACKING:

Cool - they should have this trait and it's worthless as a HLA.

 

WILD EMPATHY:

I'm not against improving this to a summoning spell at later levels (Wild Dogs, Leopards (or some other cat), Bears).

 

DIVINE SPELLCASTING: the ranger can cast 1st level divine spells. At levels 8, 12 and 16 he can cast 2nd, 3rd and 4th level spells respectively. At level 6 and every other 4 levels he can memorize one more spell per day for each spell level he currently knows.

Limited to druid spellbook, with no elemental damage spells, I presume?

 

WOODLAND STRIDE: the ranger can move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment.

May I ask, just what does this mean in in-game terms? Immunity to Entangle, Web, Grease? This could be interesting.

 

Archer

Advantages:

- Can achieve grandmastery (+++++) in short bow and long bow

- At 1st level, gains a +1 bonus to hit and damage with missile weapons. For every 4 levels, this bonus increases by +1, up to +5 at level 16.

- At 4th level, can use Called Shot once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day.

- At 11th level, gains a +2 bonus to AC vs. missile weapons. This bonus increases by an additional +1 at levels 14 and 17.

I'm glad you decided to keep Called Shot every 4 levels.

 

- Called Shot currently works as the same ability from KR's True Fighter, but the Archer can perform them only with missile weapons.

Any possibilty of expanding this feature for Archers? I know you tought about Sunder already. Anyways, I can envision Archer having some extra edge on his CSs over a fighter (apart from his ranged THAC0 bonuses) like aiming the head (Daze, Confusion, Blindness), throat (Silence, bleeding), even with higher THAC0 penalty (-6).

 

P.S.

About Tracking - Refinements made this into a detection ability (I guess like Barbarian's Feral Senses). Are you planning on doing the same? If yes, I'm all for it. It's a nice way to make this ability useful. You might even give it to them later, or use detection ability as an upgrade at 10th level.

Edited July 28, 2013 by kreso

[Demivrgvs]

Sorry for late reply, I haven't noticed you updated 1st post here. 2 cents on the matter:

Well, I haven't mentioned the update because I was still updating it.

 

True Ranger

Rangers are usually portraited as lightly armored fighters, having a bow on their back and a weapon in each hand. To make class more appealing, why not give them *** in Bows? It would (imo) make sense that they're highly proficient with it.

Right now I'm not limiting True Ranger's armor proficiency, even if I believe medium armor is more than enough. I'm only considering it because at level 1 this class gets too many things compared to a True Fighter. At least heavy armors blocks Stealth (even with IR where you can hide with heavier armors you still need very high stealth skill before even try it), and Wild Empathy is situational, but the free spec (++) in two weapon style is really a huge bonus early on (leaving aside that I don't like it is forced on you - not everyone wants to play a clone of Drizzt).

 

On a side note, if we'll ever need a small nerf for Rangers, I'd dare to suggest making them get d8 HDs as per 3E (if I'm not wrong ToBEx allows to do things like this now).

 

Regarding Mastery (+++) with bows - I don't know if I like it, probably not. It makes the Archer look slightly less special, and all rangers in general a little bit too much like fighters.

 

Wild Empathy

I'm not against improving this to a summoning spell at later levels (Wild Dogs, Leopards (or some other cat), Bears).

I'm not sure I like the idea simply because it kinda overlaps with Animal Summoning spells, but nonetheless I am for trying to make it improve beyond a simple charm animal, hence the change of name from AD&D one to 3E one. I'm not 100% sure it's fully doable (it depends on in-game flags) but ideally I wanted to suggest making a mid-high level ranger able to charm not only "normal animals" but also magical beasts (e.g. wyverns?) or similar creatures who populate the wilderness (e.g. Drizzt managed to become a sort of friend even with a colony of myconids, but we are free to discuss the limits).

 

Tracking

Refinements made this into a detection ability (I guess like Barbarian's Feral Senses). Are you planning on doing the same? If yes, I'm all for it. It's a nice way to make this ability useful. You might even give it to them later, or use detection ability as an upgrade at 10th level.

Yes. As a start, I'm making it a sort of temporary "stance" where the ranger moves at half speed but has a % chance to detect nearby enemies and reveal invisible ones on sight (unlike similar spells I'd like the ranger to reveal the target only after a small 3-6 sec delay). A later upgrade, inspired by PnP Swift Tracker, could reduce or even remove movement penalty, reduce or remove the time needed to reveal invisible creatures, and maybe raise the % chance.

 

It's a little bit harder to implement, but sooner or later I would indeed love to extend tracking.2da file (the one responsible for lines like "tracks of wolves leading to the north; the area seems populated by creature_type; bla bla") to include all BG1 and BG2 areas. That would make this ability hugely more cool imo.

 

Divine Spellcasting

Limited to druid spellbook, with no elemental damage spells, I presume?

Exactly (and while I'm at it I'll finally fix Cleric/Ranger to not get 5th+ druid spells). Furthermore, I also have a decent list of possible new entries.

 

L1: Camouflage (Stalker only?), Longstrider

L2: Animalistic Power, Hunter's Eye (Stalker only?), Snare

L3: Nature's Favor, Non-Detection (Stalker only?)

L4: Animal Growth, Mass Camouflage, Mass Longstrider

 

Alternatively, instead of limiting new spells to a particular kit, True Rangers might get all of them while each kit is limited to some "spheres" (e.g. Beast Master focuses on summons and summon buff; only True Ranger and Stalker gets Camouflage, Hunter's Eye and Non-detection; Archer does not get certain spells; etc.).

 

Woodland Stride

May I ask, just what does this mean in in-game terms? Immunity to Entangle, Web, Grease? This could be interesting.

As a start I actually only picked Entangle, but I'm not excluding further refinements. We might think to extend it a little bit (e.g. SRv4's Spike Growth), or we could include here a bonus to saves vs. breath considering 3E rangers have better reflex saves.

 

 

Archer

I'm not excluding later revisions of Called Shot (and yes, a higher thac0 penalty is almost a must imo) but as a start I think Fighter's ones are more than enough imo, aren't they?

Edited July 28, 2013 by Demivrgvs

[kreso]

True Ranger

On a side note, if we'll ever need a small nerf for Rangers, I'd dare to suggest making them get d8 HDs as per 3E (if I'm not wrong ToBEx allows to do things like this now).

I tought you were to buff them!

 

Wild Empathy

I am for trying to make it improve beyond a simple charm animal, hence the change of name from AD&D one to 3E one. I'm not 100% sure it's fully doable (it depends on in-game flags) but ideally I wanted to suggest making a mid-high level ranger able to charm not only "normal animals" but also magical beasts (e.g. wyverns?) or similar creatures who populate the wilderness (e.g. Drizzt managed to become a sort of friend even with a colony of myconids, but we are free to discuss the limits).

Uuuh...just how many wyverns are in BG2? Unless you want to really extend this to things such as Umber Hulks or Elementals (which I wouldn't like) it would still be useless beyond those few maps in BG1 featuring bears and wolves. BG2 isn't played in outside areas much, and ToB features almost 0 animals/beasts.

Drizzt may befriend myconids, but that's a bit silly imo. Friends with fungus?

 

Tracking

Yes. As a start, I'm making it a sort of temporary "stance" where the ranger moves at half speed but has a % chance to detect nearby enemies and reveal invisible ones on sight (unlike similar spells I'd like the ranger to reveal the target only after a small 3-6 sec delay). A later upgrade, inspired by PnP Swift Tracker, could reduce or even remove movement penalty, reduce or remove the time needed to reveal invisible creatures, and maybe raise the % chance.

Good.

 

Divine Spellcasting

Camouflage - +10 Stealth......I'd never use it, tbh.

Animalistic Power - seems very powerful. You really want to give them this spell ? (from description, it's +2 to combat stats for 1turn/level)

Hunter's eye seems nice, but I don't know how you'd implement it - giving someone a backstab ability?... I fear abuse with this.

Snare - I'm never in favour of traps.

Nature's Fervor - I'd vote for Beastmaster only, since it's casted on animals, ditto Animal Growth

 

Woodland Stride

As a start I actually only picked Entangle, but I'm not excluding further refinements. We might think to extend it a little bit (e.g. SRv4's Spike Growth), or we could include here a bonus to saves vs. breath considering 3E rangers have better reflex saves.

Considering the in-game value of such immunity, I agree on adding +x vs breath save.

Speaking of which, ever considered a crazy idea of implementing penalty to saves vs breath to medium/heavy armor?

 

Archer

I'm not exlucing later revisions of Called Shot (and yes, a higher thac0 penalty is almost a must imo) but as a start I think Fighter's ones are more than enough imo, aren't they?

Yes...but I'm slightly worried about Archer here. A high level fighter using Offensive Stance almost never misses his target (tried with Mazzy, round1 - use Called Shot, round2 - activate Offensive Stance), therefore loosing nothing apart THAC0 compared to Archer (and at mid-high levels, -4 THAC0 is irrelevant with GM in bows, not to mention enchantments bonus on arrows/bows/spells available).

I would hate to see a dedicated Archer (which is an extremely specialized kit) overshadowed by a fighter who choose bows as his weapon of choice (in addition, a fighter can obtain GM in crossbows etc. not to mention other benefits like Full-plate).

[Jarno Mikkola]

True Ranger

Right now I'm not limiting True Ranger's armor proficiency, even if I believe medium armor is more than enough. I'm only considering it because at level 1 this class gets too many things compared to a True Fighter. At least heavy armors blocks Stealth (even with IR where you can hide with heavier armors you still need very high stealth skill before even try it), and Wild Empathy is situational, but the free spec (++) in two weapon style is really a huge bonus early on (leaving aside that I don't like it is forced on you - not everyone wants to play a clone of Drizzt).

 

On a side note, if we'll ever need a small nerf for Rangers, I'd dare to suggest making them get d8 HDs as per 3E (if I'm not wrong ToBEx allows to do things like this now).

 

Regarding Mastery (+++) with bows - I don't know if I like it, probably not. It makes the Archer look slightly less special, and all rangers in general a little bit too much like fighters.

One option to give the ranger less of an advantage at that start is to adjust the prof.2da to reduce the rangers(and ranger/clerics) to 3 point picks... 2 is too much in my mind. And yes, I would allow the all rangers to have 3 points in bows/crossbow.

[Demivrgvs]

True Ranger

On a side note, if we'll ever need a small nerf for Rangers, I'd dare to suggest making them get d8 HDs as per 3E (if I'm not wrong ToBEx allows to do things like this now).

I tought you were to buff them!

I am (much better spellcasting, slightly better charm animal, tracking, woodland stride, and a PnP-esque Quarry ability I still haven't added). I'm not implementing it right now, but in the long run we might indeed discover we need one of the two classic "disadvantages" from 3E (medium armor and d8).

 

Just look at what a True Ranger gets at level 1:

- racial enemy

- wild empathy

- tracking

- stealth

- free ++ in 2 weapon style

While a True Fighter only has Offensive/Defensive Stance. If you ask me, until the fighter gets Mastery at level 3 the clear winner is the ranger.

 

Wild Empathy

I am for trying to make it improve beyond a simple charm animal, hence the change of name from AD&D one to 3E one. I'm not 100% sure it's fully doable (it depends on in-game flags) but ideally I wanted to suggest making a mid-high level ranger able to charm not only "normal animals" but also magical beasts (e.g. wyverns?) or similar creatures who populate the wilderness (e.g. Drizzt managed to become a sort of friend even with a colony of myconids, but we are free to discuss the limits).

Uuuh...just how many wyverns are in BG2? Unless you want to really extend this to things such as Umber Hulks or Elementals (which I wouldn't like) it would still be useless beyond those few maps in BG1 featuring bears and wolves. BG2 isn't played in outside areas much, and ToB features almost 0 animals/beasts.

Drizzt may befriend myconids, but that's a bit silly imo. Friends with fungus?

 

Divine Spellcasting

Camouflage - +10 Stealth......I'd never use it, tbh.

Animalistic Power - seems very powerful. You really want to give them this spell ? (from description, it's +2 to combat stats for 1turn/level)

Hunter's eye seems nice, but I don't know how you'd implement it - giving someone a backstab ability?... I fear abuse with this.

Snare - I'm never in favour of traps.

Nature's Fervor - I'd vote for Beastmaster only, since it's casted on animals, ditto Animal Growth

Camouflage - self only Invisibility?

Animalistic Power - I'm not convinced myself, it's pretty much a copy of cleric/paladin Draw Upon Divine Might

Hunter's eye - self only, +1 backstab multiplier (aka x2 for True Ranger)

Snare - it's simply a Fire Trap variant which entangles instead of dealing fire damage

 

Woodland Stride

Considering the in-game value of such immunity, I agree on adding +x vs breath save.

Speaking of which, ever considered a crazy idea of implementing penalty to saves vs breath to medium/heavy armor?

It obviosuly makes sense along DEX penalty (as per PnP), but do you really want players to hate me?

 

 

Archer

I'm not exlucing later revisions of Called Shot (and yes, a higher thac0 penalty is almost a must imo) but as a start I think Fighter's ones are more than enough imo, aren't they?

 

...

I would hate to see a dedicated Archer (which is an extremely specialized kit) overshadowed by a fighter who choose bows as his weapon of choice (in addition, a fighter can obtain GM in crossbows etc. not to mention other benefits like Full-plate).

The Archer would still deal more damage (even counting TF's Offensive Stance) while being much more accurate (+5 hit/dmg). The Archer can also use stealth to snipe a target by surprise with a CS, or cast Entangle before firing down arrows in the area.

 

Anyway, I do said I'm open to later refinements, but even in the current state this kit is extremely powerful imo (on par if not better than vanilla's Archer).

 

 

Edit:

One option to give the ranger less of an advantage at that start is to adjust the prof.2da to reduce the rangers(and ranger/clerics) to 3 point picks... 2 is too much in my mind. And yes, I would allow the all rangers to have 3 points in bows/crossbow.

I do thought about limiting the starting prof points, but I'm not convinced because it forces players to pretty much have only 1 weapon type until level 3. Edited July 28, 2013 by Demivrgvs

[kreso]

True Ranger

..... in the long run we might indeed discover we need one of the two classic "disadvantages" from 3E (medium armor and d8).

I'd vote medium armor. Even the in-game description of constitution says that it's important for rangers. And honestly, I fail to see ranger in full-plate.

 

Just look at what a True Ranger gets at level 1:

- racial enemy

....I am very unsure just how useful this is. Demons are an obvious all-game pick (even if only 3 exist in BG1), but otherwise....it's a crappy implementation of otherwise a neat ability. A fighter will match this up and above with GM.

- wild empathy

Again, cute, but rather useless unfortunately.

- tracking

This is decent.

- stealth

Powerful ability for BG1.

- free ++ in 2 weapon style

It's ok, but nothing overly powerful. I like shields that early (and later as well).

While a True Fighter only has Offensive/Defensive Stance. If you ask me, until the fighter gets Mastery at level 3 the clear winner is the ranger.

True.

 

 

 

Divine Spellcasting

Camouflage - self only Invisibility?

Mmmm....Stalkers/True class I guess, instead of gaining wizard's Invisibilty this might work.

Animalistic Power - I'm not convinced myself, it's pretty much a copy of cleric/paladin Draw Upon Divine Might

Since it's Animalistic, why not disable stealth, potions and spellcasting - could work I guess (and I see a nice combo with Berserker here)

Hunter's eye - self only, +1 backstab multiplier (aka x2 for True Ranger)

Don't like it. Maybe Stalker-specific, but it would give them x5 backstab eventually. In addition, I can't exactly see Minsc backstabbing.

Snare - it's simply a Fire Trap variant which entangles instead of dealing fire damage

So, it can be casted while enemies see you etc...isn't Entangle spell pretty much the same thing? It's not like enemies avoid such spells.