Vorpal effect

[Demivrgvs]

Vorpal Effect

Even if I'd prefer to make Dragons immune to Vorpal effects I'll leave them out for now.

 

Thus for now the creatures I've made immune to it are: elementals, golems, mists, shadows, slimes, spectres, wraiths, and illusionary clones/creatures.

Yey, lets make a slime that has 30 hit points immune to this effect and not the dragon that has 600+ Hit points, for no reason other than balance.

 

Did you just lost your mind? As I just said, the effect needs to be somewhat realistic, and use-able, but not over powered and overkill!

Thanks for the kind words! Well, in terms of OP I've slightly nerfed it imo:

- I've reduced the % chance on hit (Silver Sword had 25%, Axe of the Unyelding had 10%) to its PnP's 5%

- replaced Ravager's Vorpal effect (which had no save) with a different ability

 

Then, when it comes to slimes being immune to it...where's a slime's head?!

 

PnP description: "Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads." That's why I was asking if I should make undead creatures except vampires immune to it...because PnP says so, but I'm not sure a Skeleton Warrior or a Lich should be fine without their heads.

 

So no auto-kills, far better is huge damage output that should kill most, but every devils blessed creature on the game. This way the skeletons are non-issue.

So if the slime is immune(by damage resistance, not effect resistance) to slash damage, it won't be effected by the full 200 slash damage it's subjected to, but if it's not the most highest kind of it's creation(high level/high damage resistance), it should die cause it just can't take the punishment it's subjected to.

 

Of course the 200 slash damage is just a suggestion that can vary to any amount you Devivrgvs wish to balance it to. DawidW might even have a good suggestion for it, cause he can then use the damage resistances, hit points and all that to further balance the dragons, and not get them instantly killed or not be totally uneffected by the effect cause that too is over powered.

Now, the idea per se doesn't seem bad but it has several drawbacks:

- you'd be able again to kill things like shadows and air elementals by cutting their "head" (silly)

- Stoneskin would be the anti-Vorpal protection (yeah, that spell is weak - let's make it more OP)

- creatures who are supposed to be immune to it (e.g. most "big bosses") won't be immune to it

- ...

 

I'd really like to hear David's opinion yes.

 

Let's also remember that IR's Vorpal effect allow a save (even if a dire one), PNP Vorpal effect doesn't. Would reducing the save penalty to -4 (instead of -6) be "enough"? Dragons generally have 'Save vs. Death 3'.

 

The illusionary clones usually should be dispelled if you cut their head off, don't you think? It's not like it's the lich-demi-lich that it was made of, it's just an illusion.

You're not cutting their head off because you're hitting an illusionary image...is the image so intelligent to say "oh wait, I have to simulate an effect which - if I was real - would have cut my head off!"? Not to mention that seeing the dispelled illusion's "soul" leave the non-existant body to reach the heavens is great!

 

Speaking of which, in many cases the "soul leave the dead body" animation is quite silly (especially when the ability cannot kill the target but the animation is displayed anyway)...should I remove it? I suppose most of you like it...

[DavidW]

I'd really like to hear David's opinion yes.

 

I come when called. (Eventually.) (Sometimes.)

 

The 200 slashing damage probably makes vorpal weapons more rather than less powerful. Quite a lot of creatures (notably, ToB bosses) have immunity to instant-kill effects; they'd still take the slashing damage. (I guess you could hack your way around that - apply the slashing damage via spell, write a macro to give creatures immune to Slay immunity to that spell - but it's probably not worth it.)

 

In the particular case of dragons, in the next version of SCSII (due in a couple of weeks with luck - mostly bugfixes) I'm yielding to fairly persistent suggestions that I should extend the slay-immunity of ToB dragons to SoA dragons. That means vorpal hits won't affect them (I think). That being the case, on balance I'd leave the vorpal effect able to hit dragons in IA (but that's just a personal opinion, it won't matter for SCSII). It also means that granting the 200hp damage again makes vorpalising more rather than less powerful.

 

I agree that the case for making slimes and elementals immune to vorpalising is based more on realism than balance. It sounds sensible to me.

 

Demi also asks me to comment on

 

Disruption ability. IR's already nerf it A LOT removing the -4 penalty on hit, but liches have a base save vs death 10, which still means that 50% of times they're "dead". Is this an issue? Or do you think it's fine because most of the times they're protected by PfMW and the like?

 

In the next version of SCS I'm somewhat inclined to add a component offering immunity to Disruption for (a) all liches and all undead bosses, or (b) only selected liches and undead bosses. (Tentative list: Shangalar; Vongoethe; Kangaxx; Bodhi; the lich in Sendai's lair; the WK demilich; possibly the liches defending Kangaxx's bones; possibly the Crooked Crane lich). On the assumption that anyone playing IR who's tactically hardcore enough to care about lich disruption is likely to be using SCS2, I'd probably suggest leaving it out of IR. (Doubly so because (iirc) you're not inclined to have a mass of optional components in IR, whereas I'm very relaxed about it in SCS2)

 

I should say that personally I'm not hugely bothered about Disrupting liches - at least the non-named ones - for the reason Demi gives. It gives players an interesting if risky end run around the usual "long game" lich battle, and it partially compensates for their ability to use PMW to gain total invulnerability.

[Salk]

In the particular case of dragons, in the next version of SCSII (due in a couple of weeks with luck - mostly bugfixes) I'm yielding to fairly persistent suggestions that I should extend the slay-immunity of ToB dragons to SoA dragons. That means vorpal hits won't affect them (I think).

 

Sorry for the OT, DavidW.

 

But which SCS II component grants slay immunity to dragons?

[DavidW]

In the particular case of dragons, in the next version of SCSII (due in a couple of weeks with luck - mostly bugfixes) I'm yielding to fairly persistent suggestions that I should extend the slay-immunity of ToB dragons to SoA dragons. That means vorpal hits won't affect them (I think).

 

Sorry for the OT, DavidW.

 

But which SCS II component grants slay immunity to dragons?

 

Smarter dragons. (Part of the general systemisation of dragon immunities.)

[Constantine]

(witch happen inevitably if you reload many times)

 

No ones forces any player to use or abuse the reload function of the game.

Well if you can kill Firkraag, Draconis, army of dragons and Abazigal with not a single reload, what can I say ? : gg

Only 3 or 4 reload increase the % to kill a big boss with a vorpal effect. Considering reload is not "realistic", then vorpal effect should not apply in this case imho.

Yeah, let's ask Taimon to disable "save" and "load game" buttons!!!

[Jarno Mikkola]

Vorpal Effect

Thanks for the kind words!

Well, I tried my best.

Now back to the subject.

 

Well, in terms of OP I've slightly nerfed it imo:

- I've reduced the % chance on hit (Silver Sword had 25%, Axe of the Unyelding had 10%) to its PnP's 5%

- replaced Ravager's Vorpal effect (which had no save) with a different ability

And I just forgot what did you do with the Vorpal effect that the Black Blade of Disaster has, ah, that's in Spell Rev, not in IR. As it's all interconnected. *

 

Then, when it comes to slimes being immune to it...where's a slime's head?!

PnP description: "Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads." That's why I was asking if I should make undead creatures except vampires immune to it...because PnP says so, but I'm not sure a Skeleton Warrior or a Lich should be fine without their heads.

Does it really matter if the hit effect slices the being so hard that it makes a nice rainbow at the orbit? It doesn't really need a head for that. And yes, I talked figuratively, not that the effect would actually seem anything like what I described.

 

So no auto-kills, far better is huge damage output that should kill most, but every devils blessed creature on the game. This way the skeletons are non-issue.

So if the slime is immune(by damage resistance, not effect resistance) to slash damage, it won't be effected by the full 200 slash damage it's subjected to, but if it's not the most highest kind of it's creation(high level/high damage resistance), it should die cause it just can't take the punishment it's subjected to.

...

I'd really like to hear David's opinion yes.

I'll just high light this bit a bit more, so DavidW can also give his opinion about the amount of damage, as I detect that the 200 might be a bit too much...

 

Yeah, I'll drag this here:

In the particular case of dragons, in the next version of SCSII (due in a couple of weeks with luck - mostly bugfixes) I'm yielding to fairly persistent suggestions that I should extend the slay-immunity of ToB dragons to SoA dragons. That means vorpal hits won't affect them (I think). That being the case, on balance I'd leave the vorpal effect able to hit dragons in IA (but that's just a personal opinion, it won't matter for SCSII). It also means that granting the 200hp damage again makes vorpalising more rather than less powerful.

... I'm glad SCS will handle vorpal and disruption abilities like I would without having me to force such change on all IR players. ...

* Well, so am I as I see him as the game balance master, but see, he just took one of our weapons away from us, and gave nothing to replace it with, so OK, it might be better for game balance etc. But still, all out characters are subject to the vorpal effects +1000 similar things even at 45+ character levels and the monsters just gain immunities after immunities after immunities, without the regard that the player can't get those immunities. But then again, I do sympathize with nearly all of the decisions he always makes... but there can still be ways to balance the system to both player and the monster, while neither uses cheese.

PS: the 45+ level character is just example, read it how ever you wish to cap the xp level to.

 

PPS: There is also another approach for the anti-full-protection, make the effect have 2 distinct features, the death camp for the lesser creatures, and another for those that have been protected from the instant death effect. I am sure one of the .cre flags can identify all the required monsters that would take the; for example... the 200 slash damage points.... And yet the 10th another one for the once that take 10 slash damage points.

[Constantine]

In the particular case of dragons, in the next version of SCSII (due in a couple of weeks with luck - mostly bugfixes) I'm yielding to fairly persistent suggestions that I should extend the slay-immunity of ToB dragons to SoA dragons. That means vorpal hits won't affect them (I think).

 

Sorry for the OT, DavidW.

 

But which SCS II component grants slay immunity to dragons?

 

Smarter dragons. (Part of the general systemisation of dragon immunities.)

 

C'mon, just give your dragons the Imoen's belts, this will make them A LOT smarter

[Ardanis]

Been only for two days away, thought it'd take much longer. Well, all the better.

 

Sarevok's special 'Deathbringer Assault' attack dishes out exactly 200 hp of slashing. Sometimes it felt kind of awkward to produce that screenshaking giant flower blow, only to find the enemy still standing due to slash resist. Otoh, if we look from another angle, it makes perfect sense instead - that guy was way too tough to be brought down in a single stroke.

 

So, I say go for 200 hp.

1) Like Draztik, I hate spending two minutes buffing and preparing for a boss fight, only to kill that boss in the first round.

2) 200 hp is still an instakill for grunts.

3) 5% with the save is enough of a safety buffer for bosses to avoid 2-3 consecutive vorpal hits.

 

But still, all out characters are subject to the vorpal effects +1000 similar things even at 45+ character levels and the monsters just gain immunities after immunities after immunities, without the regard that the player can't get those immunities.

Wrong - by the end of ToB PC usually has most of, if not all, boss immunities.

 

@Constantine

You can mess with CHU files, they deal with GUI. No need to mock Taimon for that

[yarpen]

From the start of IR I've always hated fact, that vorpal effect needs failing saving throw. It's especially bad in Silver Sword - it's one of the greatest artifacts in game, with quite low enchantment level (+3 isn't cool anymore when you've got Soul Reaper or Warblade) and it has only one effect which occurs quite rare and have saving throw. I think it should be very, very powerfull weapon (5% chance without saving throw) which has capability of slaying enemy at instant. Current implementation (5% chance with -4 saving throw) is weaker than normal critical hit! (increased rate of criticals would be a nice touch, on the other hand). I don't think it's SO overpowered, it's really cool to see that your character slays enemies with one hit! Making dragons immune to instant-kill effect isn't roleplaying, but still for game balancing - it's good change.

[Salk]

Like Draztik, I hate spending two minutes buffing and preparing for a boss fight, only to kill that boss in the first round.

 

This is almost paradoxical.

 

You are telling that you wouldn't want a weapon to end a fight in your favour, just because you spent time prebuffing before it and so it should last long?

 

 

I agree with yarpen about how effective the weapon should be (5% and -4 is already a big enough nerf compared to how it works PnP) although I still think dragons shouldn't be immune).

[Constantine]

I agree with yarpen about how effective the weapon should be (5% and -4 is already a big enough nerf compared to how it works PnP) although I still think dragons shouldn't be immune).

And I agree with Salk and all like-minded folks. Dragons shouldn't be immune, in PnP they are not, and after all, why the heck should they?! No reason at all!

And yes, I think giving monsters ridiculously high HD scores, stupid immunities and powers they never had in PnP just to "balance" some epic-level parties (and what if I am playing solo?!) isn't the right way for modding, I am sure. Invincible dragon with 1000hp and some greatsword +20 available early in the game are all the same for me.

[Demivrgvs]

Silver Sword

From the start of IR I've always hated fact, that vorpal effect needs failing saving throw. It's especially bad in Silver Sword - it's one of the greatest artifacts in game, with quite low enchantment level (+3 isn't cool anymore when you've got Soul Reaper or Warblade) and it has only one effect which occurs quite rare and have saving throw. I think it should be very, very powerfull weapon (5% chance without saving throw) which has capability of slaying enemy at instant. Current implementation (5% chance with -4 saving throw) is weaker than normal critical hit! (increased rate of criticals would be a nice touch, on the other hand). I don't think it's SO overpowered, it's really cool to see that your character slays enemies with one hit! Making dragons immune to instant-kill effect isn't roleplaying, but still for game balancing - it's good change.

Let's say few things:

 

1) it's 5% chance with -6 saving throw --> PnP vorpal effect isn't "automatic" on 5% chance, you need to confirm the critical hit, which is easier against lesser foes and harder against powerful creatures (e.g against dragons it's not something you can take for granted at all). The save is the best way I can implement the "confirm roll".

 

2) "increased rate of criticals would be a nice touch" --> in fact it has +10% chance to score criticals which with two-handed weapon style means 30% to score criticals!!

 

3) +3 enchantment may not seem great but is enough to hit 99,9% of enemies in this game, but still...

 

4) I do thought about further improving this weapon, though certainly not to the OP level of the Sword of Gith: here's what I just forgot about PnP Silver Swords...

 

"Silver Swords with a enchantment bonus of +5 and vorpal characteristics exist, but are minor artifacts, relatively few, and only handed down to hero's of the race. If a Silver sword falls in to the hands of a non Githyanki, githyanki kill the possessor if they can, steal the weapon if they have to, negotiate if they must or ally with the thief's most potent foe as a last resort."

 

Now, I was reluctant back then when I coded v1 because such weapon would have been the absolute anti-demilich and anti-adamantine golem weapon ever forged, but now I can fix this too!

 

Furthermore, the "lesser" silver swords +3 shouldn't be vorpal, thus I'd be actually improving the faithfulness to PnP Silver Sword's lore.

 

Long story short, now I can vote to make the Silver Sword a +5 weapon.

 

Deal?

 

 

P.S I won't make dragons immune to vorpal effects but I do agree with Ardanis and Draztik, and I'd highly welcome such tweak within SCS. Killing a mighty ancient red dragon in one hit is not fun for me...but I accept the fact that some players can find it fun.

[Salk]

Killing a mighty ancient red dragon in one hit is not fun for me...

 

You're very welcome to calculate the odds about this happening.

 

And for Constantine...

[yarpen]

Long story short, now I can vote to make the Silver Sword a +5 weapon.

I'm not sure about that is this a good change. It should go with changing Warblade into +3 weapon, Psionic Sword into +4 weapon too, because there'd be too much of heavy enchanted 2H swords in-game. So... +5 weapon, 5% for severing head off (-6 saving throw).

[Demivrgvs]

Long story short, now I can vote to make the Silver Sword a +5 weapon.

I'm not sure about that is this a good change. It should go with changing Warblade into +3 weapon, Psionic Sword into +4 weapon too, because there'd be too much of heavy enchanted 2H swords in-game. So... +5 weapon, 5% for severing head off (-6 saving throw).

I'm not sure I can follow you...you wanted Silver Sword to be more powerful, you complained that +3 was not good enough...ad now you don't want to change it unless we "nerf" Warblade and Psion's Sword?

 

Anyway, Psion's Sword already is a +4 (instead of vanilla's +5) within IR v2, and it's available almost at the end of ToB.

 

The only other +5 two-handed swords are the improved versions of Carsomyr and Sword of Grief, both weapons are available at the very end of ToB and both were +6 weapons in vanilla!! Not to mention that Carsomyr can be used only by Paladins...