Vorpal effect

[DavidW]

(So far, I've had lots of SCS players ask for this and no SCS player ask for the status quo. Constantine, Salk: are you currently users of SCS "smarter dragons"?)

No, largely because I like to play solo mage or rogue with one or two additional party members at best, and even unmodded SOA dragons are next to impossible for my party to defeat till the very end of SOA, thus I dislike the idea of pumping up these monsters even more. There are no 18+ level fighters in SOA, no WW and such, and like Ardanis already said, the dragons are not standing still doing nothing. In other words, I personally see no reason in mods that provide "tougher" versions of existing monsters, no offence intended. They are already quite a challenge for your average party IMO.

 

No offence taken, but equally, it follows that you're not exactly the target audience for SCS!

[yarpen]

No offence taken, but equally, it follows that you're not exactly the target audience for SCS!

Some SCS (especially SCS2) components are very close to be a sort of fixpack.

[Salk]

So each hit from the Silver Sword has a 5% chance of killing him.

DavidW, I was asking to calculate the odds of killing a mighty ancient red dragon in one hit. GWW is not a single hit. It's a sequence of them.

And what, did he not answer to you??? He did.

 

No, he presented the odds of vorpalising Firkraag in a scenario where a always-hitting, high level fighter attacks using GWW (which, again, is not the single hit Demivrgvs was speaking about) and the Dragon never saves against it.

 

In a neutral condition the odds of vorpalising in a single hit Firkraag (he saves at 3 vs Death) in the vanilla game with a Silver Sword set at 5% vorpal effect with save at -6 (he would save with 9-20), and assuming that the only chance of missing is a critical miss are:

 

19/20 * 5/100 * 8/20 = 1,9%

 

If we nerf further SS to let the target save at -4 instead of -6:

 

19/20 * 5/100 * 6/20 = 1,4%

[Jarno Mikkola]

In a neutral condition the odds of vorpalising in a single hit Firkraag (he saves at 3 vs Death) in the vanilla game with a Silver Sword set at 5% vorpal effect with save at -6 (he would save with 9-20), and assuming that the only chance of missing is a critical miss are:

19/20 * 5/100 * 8/20 = 1,9%

But see, in the vanilla game the actual save is -2, but the chance of vorpal effect is actually 25% of every hit, not 5%, now it turn into the ~5% total, as you multiply the 25% with the save( (3-(-2))/20=1/4 ) and critical miss chance.

[Salk]

In a neutral condition the odds of vorpalising in a single hit Firkraag (he saves at 3 vs Death) in the vanilla game with a Silver Sword set at 5% vorpal effect with save at -6 (he would save with 9-20), and assuming that the only chance of missing is a critical miss are:

19/20 * 5/100 * 8/20 = 1,9%

But see, in the vanilla game the actual save is -2, but the chance of vorpal effect is actually 25% of every hit, not 5%, which then turns out to be ~5% total as you multiply it with the save( (3-(-2))/20=1/4 ) and critical miss.

 

We are discussing IR Silver Sword's impact on the unmodded game, not the properties of the vanilla Silver Sword.

 

And as things are now (5% vorpal effect at -6) the chances to behead Firkraag in one single blow are less than 2%.

 

I've never been so good at maths so I am all ears and eager to hear the experts' opinion about my calculations. They might be wrong...

[Jarno Mikkola]

DemivrgvsWe are is discussing chancing the IR Silver Sword's impact on the unmodded game, not the properties of the vanilla Silver Sword.

Love the color.

In that case the 1.9% and 1.4% are true. While the original was 5.9375%.

[DavidW]

In a neutral condition the odds of vorpalising in a single hit Firkraag (he saves at 3 vs Death) in the vanilla game with a Silver Sword set at 5% vorpal effect with save at -6 (he would save with 9-20), and assuming that the only chance of missing is a critical miss are:

19/20 * 5/100 * 8/20 = 1,9%

But see, in the vanilla game the actual save is -2, but the chance of vorpal effect is actually 25% of every hit, not 5%, which then turns out to be ~5% total as you multiply it with the save( (3-(-2))/20=1/4 ) and critical miss.

 

We are discussing IR Silver Sword's impact on the unmodded game, not the properties of the vanilla Silver Sword.

 

Not true, actually. This came out of an OT discussion, but it was about whether SCS (not IR) should protect dragons from vorpalisation. That question has to be taken in the context of the vanilla game.

[Salk]

In a neutral condition the odds of vorpalising in a single hit Firkraag (he saves at 3 vs Death) in the vanilla game with a Silver Sword set at 5% vorpal effect with save at -6 (he would save with 9-20), and assuming that the only chance of missing is a critical miss are:

19/20 * 5/100 * 8/20 = 1,9%

But see, in the vanilla game the actual save is -2, but the chance of vorpal effect is actually 25% of every hit, not 5%, which then turns out to be ~5% total as you multiply it with the save( (3-(-2))/20=1/4 ) and critical miss.

 

We are discussing IR Silver Sword's impact on the unmodded game, not the properties of the vanilla Silver Sword.

 

Not true, actually. This came out of an OT discussion, but it was about whether SCS (not IR) should protect dragons from vorpalisation. That question has to be taken in the context of the vanilla game.

 

If that's the case then I misunderstood completely.

 

I thought Jarno's replies were addressed to my calculations, as I was trying to prove to Demivrgvs that he shouldn't worry about killing a mighty ancient dragon like Firkraag with one single blow, in case he decided to nerf the vorpal effect's odds and saves, setting it to 5% and -6 penalty to save.

 

I wish Demivrgvs could just say something about this himself now. Is he or is he not convinced now that a vorpal effect at 5% with a -6 penalty won't behead enemies that often?

[Demivrgvs]

I wish Demivrgvs could just say something about this himself now. Is he or is he not convinced now that a vorpal effect at 5% with a -6 penalty won't behead enemies that often?

Well, I'm not going to make vorpal effect not work on dragons (because IR is not aimed to hardcore players only), but I would prefer them to be immune within SCS anyway. Be it a 2% chance (with IR) or 5% chance(vanilla), I like to think my battle will not end for a single lucky hit, but because I managed to tear the dragon down with a lot of efforts.

 

P.S Vorpal effect bypasses Stoneskin too, making the dragon quite vulnerable to it compared to pure damage.

[Salk]

I like to think my battle will not end for a single lucky hit, but because I managed to tear the dragon down with a lot of efforts.

 

This argument doesn't make really much sense to me.

 

For one thing, you should then want to remove the critical hits as well (but perhaps only for the party) since they are also lucky hits?

 

For one other, this view seems to join Ardanis' rather masochistic philosophy for which specific battles must always be long with no chance, albeit minimal (2% in the case of the vorpal), to end quickly and that the prebuffing must never be wasted.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I like to think my battle will not end for a single lucky hit, but because I managed to tear the dragon down with a lot of efforts.

This argument doesn't make really much sense to me.

 

For one thing, you should then want to remove the critical hits as well (but perhaps only for the party) since they are also lucky hits?

Well, 30 *2 is quite much less in comparison than say 10 000 damage, don't you think? Yes, there are a few creatures that have that much hit points in the game, not that the player ever gets to even close to beat them, but still.

And what comes to the damage output, the backstab is far more damaging than one critical hit, and the really hard opponents are all immune to it. The same can actually be said about the critical hits, as you only have to put a helm/head gear on the monster to protect it from the double damage...

[Guest Guest]

I have lost count of the number of times I have died in BG2 because of one lucky hit. Turn about is fair play.

[Ardanis]

I AM NOT MASOCHISTIC!

 

It comes from another end - I play games for the gameplay they provide, not for realism a-la no-reload. It comes in double when the game in question is one of my faves, meaning I've replayed it repeatedly numerous times already and know every bit of it. Only one thing remains then - to enjoy the process, and what process can we talk about if I kill them in the first round? BG is a combat oriented game by initial design, so I'd say it's trying to play it the different way is what can be called masochistic (no, I don't really think it is, but still it's closer than intentionally fighting a dragon for prolonged time).

[Salk]

I AM NOT MASOCHISTIC!

 

 

It comes from another end - I play games for the gameplay they provide, not for realism a-la no-reload. It comes in double when the game in question is one of my faves, meaning I've replayed it repeatedly numerous times already and know every bit of it. Only one thing remains then - to enjoy the process, and what process can we talk about if I kill them in the first round? BG is a combat oriented game by initial design, so I'd say it's trying to play it the different way is what can be called masochistic (no, I don't really think it is, but still it's closer than intentionally fighting a dragon for prolonged time).

 

I have a different opinion. I think that fighting is accessory and the scope of Baldur's Gate is not combat centered. In fact, it's possible with smart choices to avoid many fights. And the developers tend to reward you for them, meaning that the fight is mere an obstacle to reach your goal (finish the game).

 

I am not compelled to play Baldur's Gate again by meeting more and more challenging fights. I am an SCS and SCS II user but it is because I like to play against more intelligent foes and under more realstic conditions (that's why I also install the components about some creatures having instamagic).

 

But I wouldn't enjoy playing through BG where the key-points would be the fights I'd face.

 

You see, it's very easy to make the game encounters practically impossible. We don't need to make the game such for all the others.

[Salk]

Actually I think David was trying to say ToB dragons (at least Abazigail and Draconis) were immune to vorpal effect in vanilla (via bhaalhp1.itm), and thus he may consider to extend such immunity to all BG dragons in future versions of SCSII.

 

We are not speaking of "common" dragons here.

 

Abazigail is bhaalspawn and Draconis is his son. Their immunities can be considered as special powers granted to creatures with divine blood in their veins.

 

While such exceptions can be accepted, there is no mention (if I am not mistaken) of dragons being immune to vorpals in P&P.