Vorpal effect

[DavidW]

With apologies that the Dragon thing stays a bit off-topic: the logic for granting those immunities to SoA dragons is basically the same as I use throughout SCS, viz. standardization of creatures where they seem to have random differences. ToB dragons have this immunity set, so I don't feel bad about porting it to SoA (it's in the "fairly low key" space of changes that I make in the AI part of SCS). Having said that, if there really are significant numbers of players who want SoA dragons to (a) have SCS scripting but (b) be vorpalisable, I'll make it optional. (So far, I've had lots of SCS players ask for this and no SCS player ask for the status quo. Constantine, Salk: are you currently users of SCS "smarter dragons"?)

[DavidW]

Killing a mighty ancient red dragon in one hit is not fun for me...

 

You're very welcome to calculate the odds about this happening.

 

The Silver Sword of Gith has a 25% chance of vorpalising per hit. Vorpalised targets save at -2 or die. Firkraag makes such a save 80% of the time. So each hit from the Silver Sword has a 5% chance of killing him. An 18th-level fighter is going to hit Firkraag basically all the time, so on GWW he's got something around 1-0.95^10 ~ 40% chance of an instant kill.

[Guest Guest_Loz_*]

Slay(like finger of death) and Vorpal hits are not the same effect. Vorpal effects come through the Kill Target effect. List of selected undead looks good, keeps those disruption weapons being invauable against undead while not making the major set piece fights against undead bosses a joke.

[Arashi Kai]

Slay(like finger of death) and Vorpal hits are not the same effect. Vorpal effects come through the Kill Target effect.

 

So using this logic, could we make/modify a Vorpal effect to do the proverbial 200 damage, making bosses and the like immune to the effect? Or is all of this too complicated to implement?

[Ardanis]

Warblade

You know, I might actually agree that +4 for it is too much. But I usually play evil, so I always get Soul Reaver. If Silver Sword does go up to it's PnP enchanment level (about time someone noticed it, btw ), then I think Warblade is justified to be toned a bit.

 

Anyway, Psion's Sword already is a +4 (instead of vanilla's +5) within IR v2, and it's available almost at the end of ToB.

Yaga-Shura's temple.

 

And there are only four +6 items in vanilla - Carsomyr, Ixil's Spike, Ram Staff, Ravager.

[Jarno Mikkola]

The Silver Sword of Gith has a 25% chance of vorpalising per hit. Vorpalised targets save at -2 or die. Firkraag makes such a save 80% of the time. So each hit from the Silver Sword has a 5% chance of killing him. An 18th-level fighter is going to hit Firkraag basically all the time, so on GWW he's got something around 1-0.95^10 ~ 40% chance of an instant kill.

And with the new somewhat improved system the save vs. death is +3 -(-6)= 9/20 *5%= 2.25% per hit, so 1-0.975^10 ~ 20%

That's why the damage out put needs to be realistic, not perma-death.

GWW, well, the Improved Haste with the combo of other effects can also give one ~10 attack per round, so it's not just GWW.

 

So using this logic, could we make/modify a Vorpal effect to do the proverbial 200 damage, making bosses and the like immune to the effect? Or is all of this too complicated to implement?

Better have the damage sorted out with creature effects, so no creature is immune to it, but lower the damage output for most, say a dragon gets 100 damage(for example) (minus damage resistance), no dead dragon, but it will get a semipermanent reminder it's not the god. So even the ToB dragons arecan be effected, for balance.

 

And there are only four +6 items in vanilla - Carsomyr, Ixil's Spike, Ram Staff, Ravager.

And now there are zero.

[Nythrun]

Not that I have any stake in this discussion, but a 1d10 + 3 two handed sword with very conservative assumptions (19 str) will already kill Firky with one Greater Whirlwind's worth of damage 89% of the time. The vorpal effect looks dramatic, but its real effect in a vanilla situation is rather negligable.

[Demivrgvs]

Changing Vorpal effect into a 200hp slashing damage won't happen in v3 for various reasons that may be discussed (concept, balance, compatibility), but amongst the various reasons I'd like to mention there's also a technical reason. As Ardanis discovered here, I'm unable to use 'damage' opcode applied via spl file on hit without seriously ruin Mirror Image.

 

As I said, I like the concept per se, thus if for v4 we'll find a balanced, "issue-free" way to implement it, I may go for it.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Changing Vorpal effect into a 200hp slashing damage won't happen in v3 for various reasons...

Should it actually be within the IR at all? As I would like to see something like this within SCSII, not in IR.

Of course you Demivrgvs, and Mike & all, are free to code your plans up to DavidW.

Why? Well because then there is no way around it for DavidW, and he has his say about the damage etc effects according to his perspective.

 

Should the Death Spell(for summons, and their cap removal), Disintegration, Finger of Death etc effects be also included, it could make a whole component.

[Salk]

Salk: are you currently users of SCS "smarter dragons"?

 

Yes, I am.

 

But I didn't know that dragons would acquire the power of being immune from being slain (I don't think the readme says it). That's why I asked you earlier.

[Salk]

Killing a mighty ancient red dragon in one hit is not fun for me...

 

You're very welcome to calculate the odds about this happening.

 

The Silver Sword of Gith has a 25% chance of vorpalising per hit. Vorpalised targets save at -2 or die. Firkraag makes such a save 80% of the time. So each hit from the Silver Sword has a 5% chance of killing him. An 18th-level fighter is going to hit Firkraag basically all the time, so on GWW he's got something around 1-0.95^10 ~ 40% chance of an instant kill.

 

DavidW,

 

I was asking to calculate the odds of killing a mighty ancient red dragon in one hit. GWW is not a single hit. It's a sequence of them.

 

Also, I think Nythrun has a valid point up here...

[Ardanis]

Not that I have any stake in this discussion, but a 1d10 + 3 two handed sword with very conservative assumptions (19 str) will already kill Firky with one Greater Whirlwind's worth of damage 89% of the time. The vorpal effect looks dramatic, but its real effect in a vanilla situation is rather negligable.

Only when a dragon stands still, doing nothing. In reality, however, they tend to cast Stoneskins, PFMWs and Wing Buffets. It's not as easy to perform a full WW on a dragon as it may sound (not to mention that SoA parties shouldn't really have WW at all, that's what balancers are for). And ToB ones, iirc, have damage resistance on top of that.

 

Finally, I 100% agree with SCS's tripled dragon HP, exactly because it really is immersion-breaking to fell a dragon in one WW.

[Jarno Mikkola]

So each hit from the Silver Sword has a 5% chance of killing him.

DavidW, I was asking to calculate the odds of killing a mighty ancient red dragon in one hit. GWW is not a single hit. It's a sequence of them.

And what, did he not answer to you??? He did.

 

Also, I think Nythrun has a valid point up here...

But what it fails to realize is that the dragon can and if its optimally realized it will; that the dragon will probably target the single target that is it's greatest threat level, which means the Silver Sword wielder as it has growing chance of instant kill... and kill it and heal themselves and then kick the others... but that's way too much to change in the AI targeting, when pondering the parameters.

[Demivrgvs]

Salk: are you currently users of SCS "smarter dragons"?

Yes, I am.

 

But I didn't know that dragons would acquire the power of being immune from being slain (I don't think the readme says it). That's why I asked you earlier.

Actually I think David was trying to say ToB dragons (at least Abazigail and Draconis) were immune to vorpal effect in vanilla (via bhaalhp1.itm), and thus he may consider to extend such immunity to all BG dragons in future versions of SCSII.

[Constantine]

(So far, I've had lots of SCS players ask for this and no SCS player ask for the status quo. Constantine, Salk: are you currently users of SCS "smarter dragons"?)

No, largely because I like to play solo mage or rogue with one or two additional party members at best, and even unmodded SOA dragons are next to impossible for my party to defeat till the very end of SOA, thus I dislike the idea of pumping up these monsters even more. There are no 18+ level fighters in SOA, no WW and such, and like Ardanis already said, the dragons are not standing still doing nothing. In other words, I personally see no reason in mods that provide "tougher" versions of existing monsters, no offence intended. They are already quite a challenge for your average party IMO.