Summoning spells

[Ardanis]

It started as a suggestion to pack Conjure Elemental trios into a single spell.

 

Currently we have this:

1)

2)

3) Monster I

4) Monster II, Spider

5) Monster III, Shadow, Lesser Elemental x3

6) Stalker, Undead, Nishruu, Wyvern, Elemental x3

7) Death Knight, Mordy, Hakeashar, Genie x2

8) Fiend

9) Gate

 

Summoning X

Creature I (kobolds)

Creature II (hobgoblins)

Creature III (gnolls)

Creature IV (ogres)

Creature V (lesser elemental 8HD)

Creature VI (elemental 12HD)

Creature VII (genie)

Creature VIII (greater elemental 16HD)

Creature IX (elder elemental 20HD)

 

Elementals had a chance of failure in vanilla and SR v3, so instead of deliberately deleting this feature why not summon a random type? It still may not summon what you need, but it does summon something as opposed to nothing. Besides, the type would only matter during troll hunt and trolls are not such a fearsome opponent (even Spirit ones) to require a 12th level wizard. So I don't see people reloading constantly becuase they've got an Air instead of Earth/Fire.

 

As for higher caster levels, perhaps better duration progression than higher HD?

 

Genies, well, I can think of nothing better. But they ARE quite the same, despite one being more defensive and another - offensive.

 

Summon Shadows, Create Undead, Summon Death Knight

Necromantic spells.

I at first meant to suggest moving Create Undead to 8th level and summon a vampire as per NWN2, but then realized that Death Knight does pretty much the same. In light of that, since Death Knight wasn't in vanilla game anyway, why not move it to 8th level and use for vampires? Leaving two lesser spells as they are.

Btw, wasn't there a talk about Create Undead summoning greater mummy on 18th caster level?

 

Invisible Stalker

I personally never liked Stalkers much. And Demi in PM mentioned summoning golems for 8th level.

Change it Summon Construct (Grimwarders, Battle Horrors, etc).

 

Spider Spawn, Wyvern Call

I don't know what to do about these. Have no ideas whatsoever for spiders. Wyvern, maybe move it to 7th level, replacing Death Knight? And summoning greater wyvern at 18th level?

 

Nishruu, Mordy, Hakeashar, Summon Fiend, Gate

These spells (and Project Image/Simulacrum, if we count those), should probably remain as they are.

 

 

The end result

1) Creature I

2) Creature II,

3) Creature III,

4) Creature IV, Spider

5) Creature V, Shadow

6) Creature VI, Undead, Construct, Nishruu

7) Creature VII, Mordy, Hakeashar, Wyvern

8) Creature VIII, Greater Undead, Fiend

9) Creature IX, Gate

 

5th level has such vital spells as Breach and Spell Immunity, so even those who don't like Chaos are still guaranteed to have at least half they slots here occupied with antimagic.

6th level is full (24), so thinning it seems almost a must.

7th and 8th levels have lots of useful spells, but no single unique one, so I assume they can keep the competition.

 

Elemental Swarm

Use greater elementals instead of normals.

 

Elemental Prince

Here I would suggest to boost them to 24HD at the very least:

1) vanilla Conjure Elemental spells already allowed for 24HD moster

2) it is not a random Planetar or Balor, it is a unique monster ruling over the rest of it's kind

3) duration is 1 turn, the shortest of all summoning spells

4) are you perchance aware that SCS beefs Imix and Ogremoch up to 480 hp?

 

New summons and AI

Making elemental and genie summoning spells identical (and hiding clones from the spell selection menu) should suffice.

And SCS's general wizard AI uses only Monster I/II/II and Spiders in low-level library and Death Knight, Mordy and Efretti in high-level lib.

 

[EDIT]

Okay, after additional examination it would seem better not to change the Knight.

6) Creature VI, Undead, Stalker, Nishruu, Wyvern

7) Creature VII, Mordy, Hakeashar, Death Knight

8) Creature VIII, Fiend

 

But since neither Stalker nor Wyvern are used, one can be moved to 8th level. Probably the first, as a Construct.

[/EDIT]

 

 

About Planetars. It's not a true 9th spell, even if it occupies 9th slot. I also have an idea since 2007 that HLA spells should use the innate bar, so silliness like selecting it once and then filling all slots with it.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Nice idea...

 

Elementals had a chance of failure in vanilla and SR v3, so instead of deliberately deleting this feature why not summon a random type?

Hmm, and when the random elemental joins the party... if the party already has a member of an opposite element, the lesser/old once go hostile.

[Ardanis]

Hmm, and when the random elemental joins the party... if the party already has a member of an opposite element, the lesser/old once go hostile.

Should they? I thought only fiends have such problem.

 

 

More from my twisted brain - change Death Knight to Succubus/Erinyes?

[Shaitan]

I never use summon Wyverns, does anybody use that spell?

 

I however like Spider Spawn very much.

 

Now you and Demi are writing IR3 what about taking into count items with summoning abilities ie the spider figurine from PaiNa...?

 

Cheers

[Demivrgvs]

Conjure Elementals

Elementals had a chance of failure in vanilla and SR v3, so instead of deliberately deleting this feature why not summon a random type? It still may not summon what you need, but it does summon something as opposed to nothing. Besides, the type would only matter during troll hunt and trolls are not such a fearsome opponent (even Spirit ones) to require a 12th level wizard. So I don't see people reloading constantly becuase they've got an Air instead of Earth/Fire.

 

As for higher caster levels, perhaps better duration progression than higher HD?

Long story short, the only benefit I can see from this is freeing two spell slots in case we want to add a couple of spells. Ah, we'd need someone to create a bam which could fit the spell

 

Are you also suggesting to rename the spell from Conjure (Lesser) Elemental into Summon Creature (I)V? I'm not sure I like it.

 

P.S I actually already know which spells could fill the two slots to reach again the cap: Vitriolic Sphere and Shroud of Flame.

 

 

Elemental Swarm

Use greater elementals instead of normals.

Three 16HD elementals in a single 7th lvl spell? Would they eat a Djinn/Efreet for breakfast?

 

 

Elemental Prince

Here I would suggest to boost them to 24HD at the very least:

1) vanilla Conjure Elemental spells already allowed for 24HD moster

2) it is not a random Planetar or Balor, it is a unique monster ruling over the rest of it's kind

3) duration is 1 turn, the shortest of all summoning spells

4) are you perchance aware that SCS beefs Imix and Ogremoch up to 480 hp?

I stayed as true as possible to AD&D stats for them, but I do agree with you. Anyway, the way they work now they had to remain balanced for a 7th lvl slot (actually they already don't, as they would probably fit best an 8th lvl slot). I can treat them differently (as you suggest) only if we decide to handle this spell in a completely different way (as discussed below in Summon Planetars).

 

 

Summon Djinni/Efreeti

Genies, well, I can think of nothing better. But they ARE quite the same, despite one being more defensive and another - offensive.

Well, Djinni are good aligned creatures, while Efreet are evil aligned. Which is the benefit of making them a single spell?

 

 

Create Undead

Btw, wasn't there a talk about Create Undead summoning greater mummy on 18th caster level?

Yep, and I do created the creature, the script and tested it in-game. I've intentionally left it out from V3 because for a 6th lvl spell it was really too powerful. A Greater Mummy (or Mummy Lord in 3ed) can probably match (if not outmatch) a Genie in terms of effectiveness and it has several advantages too:

- very high physical resistances

- immunity to A LOT of effects (mind-affecting abilities, poisons, diseases, ...)

- cleric spells of 1st to 5th lvl (while Genies use spells available to the summoner himself)

 

Regarding your suggestion about summoning vampires, they'd need at least an 8th lvl slot and they'd probably require A LOT of testing for balance purposes. I fear their level drain attacks much more than eventual spellcasting abilities.

 

Just that I'm here one last suggestion of mine is to add Animate Dead to mages as a 3rd lvl spell to let Necromancers summon the (in)famous player-favourite Skeleton Warriors.

 

 

Invisible Stalker

I personally never liked Stalkers much. And Demi in PM mentioned summoning golems for 8th level.

Change it Summon Construct (Grimwarders, Battle Horrors, etc).

I love Stalkers within SR instead. They are a very unique summon with their permanent invisibility and backstab potential. If we really need to make them shine even more I've a relatively simple solution, make them real "scouts" by making them work as a sort of "improved" Wizard Eye spell.

 

 

Spider Spawn & Wyvern Call

I don't know what to do about these. Have no ideas whatsoever for spiders. Wyvern, maybe move it to 7th level, replacing Death Knight? And summoning greater wyvern at 18th level?

As I told you, I've already planned to replace Wyvern Call with Shades. The latter still is a "sommoning" spell, but will summon illusionary warriors.

 

I however like Spider Spawn very much.

I see no reason to change this spell too. It makes a perfect combo with Web, and is a perfect roleplaying spell for a drow character.

 

Now you and Demi are writing IR3 what about taking into count items with summoning abilities ie the spider figurine from PaiNa...?

What do yu mean? Kitthix is already improved by IR.

 

 

Summon Planetars

About Planetars. It's not a true 9th spell, even if it occupies 9th slot. I also have an idea since 2007 that HLA spells should use the innate bar, so silliness like selecting it once and then filling all slots with it.

Despite my initial doubts I think I fully agree now on this. And it would actually balance HLAs much better:

- why priests get 7th lvl spells while mages get 9th lvl spells?

- why HLA spells are more often than not more powerful than spells which would occupy the same spell slot? (I partially fixed this within SR)

 

The main problem here would be to avoid compatibility issues:

- making the change SCS compatible shouldn't be a problem (leave the original .spl untouched, and give players custom innate spells instead). A small issue though is that SCS mages would still use spell slots for these spells instead of filling them with 9th lvl spells.

- I have more doubts about making it Refinements compatible, it wouldn't be easy

 

 

New summons and AI

Making elemental and genie summoning spells identical (and hiding clones from the spell selection menu) should suffice.

And SCS's general wizard AI uses only Monster I/II/II and Spiders in low-level library and Death Knight, Mordy and Efretti in high-level lib.

It's relatively easy to handle this, especially for non-spellcasting summons (e.g. replacing Wyvern Call with Shades causes no issues at all).

 

Some summons instead are not so easy to handle (e.g. Summon Death Knight, Summon Fiend and Gate requires much more work and SCS needed checks to take changes into account), but I think we know what we can do, and what we can't do by now.

[the bigg]

About Planetars. It's not a true 9th spell, even if it occupies 9th slot. I also have an idea since 2007 that HLA spells should use the innate bar, so silliness like selecting it once and then filling all slots with it.

There's a minimod over at SHS that does this for all 10th/Epic level spells.

 

Also, refinements adds custom creatures and AIs to HLA-level summons, so IMHO it'd be easiest to have SR alter HLAs only in a separate component.

[F-man]

As SR makes many 9th level spells much more useful, it's really kind of annoying that 10th level spells usually take most of those few 9th level spell slots. So making the 10th/Epic spells work like in the minimod the bigg mentioned would be great as the mod even makes the spells appear in spellcasting menu like spells they are. Have you thought how would they work with multiclass mages and clerics, especially Fighter/Mage/Cleric?

 

About Planetars. It's not a true 9th spell, even if it occupies 9th slot. I also have an idea since 2007 that HLA spells should use the innate bar, so silliness like selecting it once and then filling all slots with it.

There's a minimod over at SHS that does this for all 10th/Epic level spells.

 

Also, refinements adds custom creatures and AIs to HLA-level summons, so IMHO it'd be easiest to have SR alter HLAs only in a separate component.

 

After checking how the minimod works, it would probably be quite easy to make it work with refinements so there shouldn't be problems. Or is there?

 

Finally, in SCSII, wheter one wants enemy mages and clerics to use HLA spells or not, must already be selected when installing it so that component could probably be modified to take into account situations like this. (It would be even better if it would also take into account refinements.) Of course, that completely depends on the great and highly respected modder of SCS.

[the bigg]

I have recoded that mod to be patch-rific; I just need to handle multiclasses and I'll post the tp2.

[Jarno Mikkola]

After checking how the minimod works, it would probably be quite easy to make it work with refinements so there shouldn't be problems. Or is there?

Well, as this actually might require a change for the HLA table(and really should go into the Kit Revisions mod), I would suggest to make this into a separate component, and then there's the question: Is it fair to give a mage a 10th level spell where he can take a freely chosen one 5th, 6th or 7th level spell as an alternative(and the highest even requires the 2 lower)? As we are after all talking about the HLAs.

 

Regarding your suggestion about summoning vampires, they'd need at least an 8th lvl slot and they'd probably require A LOT of testing for balance purposes. I fear their level drain attacks much more than eventual spellcasting abilities.

Well, truthfully you shouldn't fear about vampires summoning, except from the enemies, as the level drain doesn't actually benefit the player that much... the enemy mage doesn't loose spells, it doesn't suddenly get less hit points... yes, the player can still drain the levels, but he gets no XP, and not that much other benefits that the Ctrl+Y wouldn't cover.

[Demivrgvs]

There's a minimod over at SHS that does this for all 10th/Epic level spells.

Interesting, I'll take a look at it then.

 

Also, refinements adds custom creatures and AIs to HLA-level summons, so IMHO it'd be easiest to have SR alter HLAs only in a separate component.

I know, and as of now I actually let SR's HLA-level summons (they too get custom AIs) either override Refinement's one or vice-versa depending on install order. Despite my love for Refinements I prefer my work on them and combining the two mods do wonders for me. Anyway, having the whole matter handled in a separate component is surely better, and if it makes into SR V4 it will be a separate component.

 

As SR makes many 9th level spells much more useful, it's really kind of annoying that 10th level spells usually take most of those few 9th level spell slots. So making the 10th/Epic spells work like in the minimod the bigg mentioned would be great as the mod even makes the spells appear in spellcasting menu like spells they are.

Well, this is mostly a cosmetic choice, but I don't know if it's "correct" to put them under the "spellbook" button instead of under the 'innates' button...if they are not in the spellbook and are cast as innates I think they should appear between the other innate abilities (like fighter's HLAs). Am I wrong?

 

Have you thought how would they work with multiclass mages and clerics, especially Fighter/Mage/Cleric?

That entirely depends on the HLAs table. Personally I'd make sure the character needs to have 18 mage levels to cast it, because it really isn't fair to let a F/M/C lvl 12/12/12 cast Dragon's Breath when he can't even cast a Delayed Fireball.

 

Finally, in SCSII, wheter one wants enemy mages and clerics to use HLA spells or not, must already be selected when installing it so that component could probably be modified to take into account situations like this. (It would be even better if it would also take into account refinements.) Of course, that completely depends on the great and highly respected modder of SCS.

That's really not a big problem. The way I see it the current HLAs will be left untouched and SCS will still use them as always, while players will cast them as innates. If David will ever want to take such change into account then he'll be able to assign more 9th lvl spells to archmages and liches, but other than that there's no in-game difference.

 

Is it fair to give a mage a 10th level spell where he can take a freely chosen one 5th, 6th or 7th level spell as an alternative(and the highest even requires the 2 lower)? As we are after all talking about the HLAs.

I'm not sure I understand the question...

 

Regarding your suggestion about summoning vampires, they'd need at least an 8th lvl slot and they'd probably require A LOT of testing for balance purposes. I fear their level drain attacks much more than eventual spellcasting abilities.

Well, truthfully you shouldn't fear about vampires summoning, except from the enemies, as the level drain doesn't actually benefit the player that much... the enemy mage doesn't loose spells, it doesn't suddenly get less hit points... yes, the player can still drain the levels, but he gets no XP, and not that much other benefits that the Ctrl+Y wouldn't cover.

Are you sure Level Drain doesn't affect AI controlled creatures?! No thac0, save, hit point loss? I thought it worked last time I tested it for SR's Larloch's Energy Drain.

[the bigg]

Is it fair to give a mage a 10th level spell where he can take a freely chosen one 5th, 6th or 7th level spell as an alternative(and the highest even requires the 2 lower)? As we are after all talking about the HLAs.

Refinements gives you 6', 7' and 8' extra spells in a single pick, so it's not an useless pick

 

Well, truthfully you shouldn't fear about vampires summoning, except from the enemies, as the level drain doesn't actually benefit the player that much... the enemy mage doesn't loose spells, it doesn't suddenly get less hit points... yes, the player can still drain the levels, but he gets no XP, and not that much other benefits that the Ctrl+Y wouldn't cover.

Where did you pull that load of BS out of? level drain on enemies does the same things that it does to you and doesn't rob you of experience points (if the summoned vampire is green-circled). Play a game with Valen.

[F-man]

After checking how the minimod works, it would probably be quite easy to make it work with refinements so there shouldn't be problems. Or is there?

Well, as this actually might require a change for the HLA table(and really should go into the Kit Revisions mod), I would suggest to make this into a separate component, and then there's the question: Is it fair to give a mage a 10th level spell where he can take a freely chosen one 5th, 6th or 7th level spell as an alternative(and the highest even requires the 2 lower)? As we are after all talking about the HLAs.

From Refinements:

 

Bonus Mage Spells

This high level ability allows the mage to learn an extra 6th, 7th and 8th level spell.

 

Requires: Arcane Knowledge

 

So like this it should work, little modification. I personally would make most of the spells only selectable only once or so, so there wouldn't be something like chain of 10 Dragon's Breath from one mage. But maybe some spells could be selected several times. It's my opinion only though. I was also thinking that this would be separate component.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Is it fair to give a mage a 10th level spell where he can take a freely chosen one 5th, 6th or 7th level spell as an alternative(and the highest even requires the 2 lower)? As we are after all talking about the HLAs.

I'm not sure I understand the question...are you suggesting a new HLA which does that?

Well, if the HLA spell is cast as an innate(not from the mages spellbook), it becomes a free 10th level spell.

And it's the same if it's 5th, 6th and 7th, or 6th, 7th and 8th... it still not worth a 3, 10th level spells.

 

Well, truthfully you shouldn't fear about vampires summoning, except from the enemies, as the level drain doesn't actually benefit the player that much... the enemy mage doesn't loose spells, it doesn't suddenly get less hit points... yes, the player can still drain the levels, but he gets no XP, and not that much other benefits that the Ctrl+Y wouldn't cover.

Where did you pull that load of BS out of? level drain on enemies does the same things that it does to you and doesn't rob you of experience points (if the summoned vampire is green-circled). Play a game with Valen.

But that doesn't effect the monsters... see as the monsters can have any AC, Thac0, Hitpoints etc it's maker wanted to put on it, it's the same as where the Kits only effect the joined party members... of course you can make the vampire to actually not drain the levels, but the AC Thac0, Hit points, etc. But nothing actually happens from the Level drain, except the instant death effect that gives no XP.

[F-man]

Is it fair to give a mage a 10th level spell where he can take a freely chosen one 5th, 6th or 7th level spell as an alternative(and the highest even requires the 2 lower)? As we are after all talking about the HLAs.

I'm not sure I understand the question...are you suggesting a new HLA which does that?

Well, if the HLA spell is cast as an innate(not from the mages spellbook), it becomes a free 10th level spell.

And it's the same if it's 5th, 6th and 7th, or 6th, 7th and 8th... it still not worth a 3, 10th level spells.

Obviously didn't read my previous post with the description of the mentioned HLA. 1 HLA = 3 extra spell slots so it works really well.

[Ardanis]

Conjure Elementals

Long story short, the only benefit I can see from this is freeing two spell slots in case we want to add a couple of spells. Ah, we'd need someone to create a bam which could fit the spell

Am I then the only one who feels uncomfortable having to write down three scrolls, then select between three very similar spells?

 

Are you also suggesting to rename the spell from Conjure (Lesser) Elemental into Summon Creature (I)V? I'm not sure I like it.

I figured it'd be more consistent this way. Well, whatever.

 

Elemental Swarm

You're must right about breakfast.

 

Summon Djinni/Efreeti

Well, Djinni are good aligned creatures, while Efreet are evil aligned. Which is the benefit of making them a single spell?

Similar to what aVENGER and David did to Gate spells, allowing it to summon fiends based on caster's alignment. Different creatures, the same portal.

It only came to me now - if celestials and Smite/Blight are tied to alignment, why not to do the same to genies?

 

Create Undead

Yep, and I do created the creature, the script and tested it in-game. I've intentionally left it out from V3 because for a 6th lvl spell it was really too powerful. A Greater Mummy (or Mummy Lord in 3ed) can probably match (if not outmatch) a Genie in terms of effectiveness and it has several advantages too:

- very high physical resistances

- immunity to A LOT of effects (mind-affecting abilities, poisons, diseases, ...)

- cleric spells of 1st to 5th lvl (while Genies use spells available to the summoner himself)

I have an idea - use it for Mummy Dust (18 HD) as HLA.

 

Regarding your suggestion about summoning vampires, they'd need at least an 8th lvl slot and they'd probably require A LOT of testing for balance purposes. I fear their level drain attacks much more than eventual spellcasting abilities.

Wraiths can level drain too. I do share most of your concerns, however.

 

Just that I'm here one last suggestion of mine is to add Animate Dead to mages as a 3rd lvl spell to let Necromancers summon the (in)famous player-favourite Skeleton Warriors.

 

Invisible Stalker

Wizard Eye effect would be great.

 

Wyvern Call

As I told you, I've already planned to replace Wyvern Call with Shades. The latter still is a "sommoning" spell, but will summon illusionary warriors.

I should have missed it then, sorry.