Summoning spells

[Jarno Mikkola]

Conjure Elementals

Long story short, the only benefit I can see from this is freeing two spell slots in case we want to add a couple of spells. Ah, we'd need someone to create a bam which could fit the spell

Am I then the only one who feels uncomfortable having to write down three scrolls, then select between three very similar spells?

Definitely not. Although I never really used any of them.

 

Are you also suggesting to rename the spell from Conjure (Lesser) Elemental into Summon Creature (I)V? I'm not sure I like it.

I figured it'd be more consistent this way. Well, whatever.

Well, why not just remove the Conjure/Creature/etc. words and put everything as is: By Spell Levels;

1) Summon Kobolds

2) Summon Hobgoblins

3) Summon Gnolls

4) Summon Ogres

5) Summon Elemental (HD8)

6) Summon Genie

7) Summon Elemental Swarm, this spell is 3 Elementals (HD8)

8) Summon Greater Elemental (HD16)

9) Summon Ancient Elemental (HD20+)

Or whatever...

 

Of course there can be Summon Skeletons at level 3 or 5, the Spider spell somewhere, Invisible Stalker, and Wyvern Call and all other spells too...

But I think that I don't think that we should subject the lesser spells under the Summoning Cap(default max 5), Kobolds, Hobgoblins, Gnolls, Ogres, Skeletons... of course if one really wishes to cap the casting, one can make use of more powerful versions as the group leaders that do not summon when the cap is exceeded. And then to limit the power of the spells, the Kobolds for example need to be the basic 4 hit point creatures that can be squashed by a level 2 fighter in a second, and the spell should cast a single creature at level 1, and a few(~3) when the mage is at level 7-9, at most when the caster is at level 20-40, it then should cast 1 leader and 4 basic creatures...And the leader is a bit better, but not much. The higher level spells need to be a bit better and shall always be better than the lower level spells...

[Kalindor]

P.S I actually already know which spells could fill the two slots to reach again the cap: Vitriolic Sphere and Shroud of Flame.

If these aren't summoning spells then replacing the Conjure Elemental series with them would require modified treatment by caster AI in both vanilla and SCS, no?

 

Spider Spawn & Wyvern Call

As I told you, I've already planned to replace Wyvern Call with Shades. The latter still is a "sommoning" spell, but will summon illusionary warriors.

I am probably the only person that uses the wyverns, but they amuse me greatly for some reason. I hope its not a fetish.

 

HLA Spells

I personally support the idea of converting the level 10 spells into innates due to the fact that it would prevent the memorization of 4 Improved Alactrity's. This is balanced by the fact that they would then leave spell slots open. In terms of compatibility, I do also love Refinements, but find myself more and more using it for the HLA revisions alone. I daresay that, if Kit Revisions is released with a fancy HLA system, then Refinements will become almost "deprecated" to me. (No offense The Bigg!)

 

Well, why not just remove the Conjure/Creature/etc. words and put everything as is: By Spell Levels;

1) Summon Kobolds

2) Summon Hobgoblins

3) Summon Gnolls

4) Summon Ogres

5) Summon Elemental (HD8)

6) Summon Genie

7) Summon Elemental Swarm, this spell is 3 Elementals (HD8)

8) Summon Greater Elemental (HD16)

9) Summon Ancient Elemental (HD20+)

Or whatever...

I support this. I rather like more colorful and descriptive spell names as opposed to greater standardization like renaming the conjure elementals into "summon creature --".

[Ardanis]

But I think that I don't think that we should subject the lesser spells under the Summoning Cap(default max 5), Kobolds, Hobgoblins, Gnolls, Ogres, Skeletons... of course if one really wishes to cap the casting, one can make use of more powerful versions as the group leaders that do not summon when the cap is exceeded.

I always play with removed cap too, but I wonder if it should belong to a main component. Because it then needs to patch all SPL/ITM/EFF/etc against summons, and who can tell there won't be new such added after SR.

A separate component would be nice however. But I think basic summons don't need to exceed the cap of 5 to be powerful spells.

 

1) Summon Kobolds

2) Summon Hobgoblins

3) Summon Gnolls

4) Summon Ogres

5) Summon Elemental (HD8)

6) Summon Genie

7) Summon Elemental Swarm, this spell is 3 Elementals (HD8)

8) Summon Greater Elemental (HD16)

9) Summon Ancient Elemental (HD20+)

Ancient? To my knowledge there are Small, Meduim, Large, Huge, Greater, Elder, Monolith (Prince) and Primal (64HD) types.

 

I also wouldn't replace genies with els. David can tell better, but afaict SCS uses genies particularily because they're now gated and immune to Death Spell.

 

 

Genie vs Elemental

Or the matter of breakfast. Genies are not a subject to anti-summon spells, which is especially notable without summon cap removal. And they spellcasting abilities can add a punch.

 

Elementals, however... Both AD&D 2 and D&D 3 detail them as outsiders with D8 hit die. But SR seems to use a fighter template for them?

Greater Earth one (188 hp, 0 thaco, 2d10+14) already is a match for any genie. Shouldn't they be changed back to the outsider HD type?

[Demivrgvs]

# of Spells Cap Limit

P.S I actually already know which spells could fill the two slots to reach again the cap: Vitriolic Sphere and Shroud of Flame.

If these aren't summoning spells then replacing the Conjure Elemental series with them would require modified treatment by caster AI in both vanilla and SCS, no?

I wasn't saying to overwrite those summoning spells with the new ones, but that "disbaling" two of them allows us to add the above mentioned spells without incurring in the 24 spells per lvl cap.

 

 

Renaming spells

Well, why not just remove the Conjure/Creature/etc. words and put everything as is: By Spell Levels;

1) Summon Kobolds

2) Summon Hobgoblins

3) Summon Gnolls

4) Summon Ogres

5) Summon Elemental (HD8)

6) Summon Genie

7) Summon Elemental Swarm, this spell is 3 Elementals (HD8)

8) Summon Greater Elemental (HD16)

9) Summon Ancient Elemental (HD20+)

Or whatever...

I support this. I rather like more colorful and descriptive spell names as opposed to greater standardization like renaming the conjure elementals into "summon creature --".

Yeah, I'd probably prefer this solution too, but both solutions require new bams (either tons of Monster Summoning-like bams, or a couple of unique bams to replace MS ones)...thus we'll see.

 

 

Elementals

Both AD&D 2 and D&D 3 detail them as outsiders with D8 hit die. But SR seems to use a fighter template for them?

Greater Earth one (188 hp, 0 thaco, 2d10+14) already is a match for any genie. Shouldn't they be changed back to the outsider HD type?

Actually I'm pretty sure I followed 3ed templates:

- 16HD x8 Hit Points plus 6x10 CON bonus = 188 hit points

- base THAC0 8 (which is 3/4 x HD) plus 5 STR bonus and +3 enchanted fists = 0

Am I wrong? Are you suggesting all elementals should be slightly nerfed? In that case I'd simply remove the enchantement bonuses (in this case +3 hit/dmg) of their "fists".

 

 

Summon Djinni/Efreeti

Similar to what aVENGER and David did to Gate spells, allowing it to summon fiends based on caster's alignment. Different creatures, the same portal.

It only came to me now - if celestials and Smite/Blight are tied to alignment, why not to do the same to genies?

I knew you'd say that, but I was actually saying that I don't see the benefit for players, not that it wasn't doable.

 

I also wouldn't replace genies with els. David can tell better, but afaict SCS uses genies particularily because they're now gated and immune to Death Spell.

I never thought about moving genies to 6th lvl spells like Jarno suggests.

 

 

Create Undead

Yep, and I do created the creature, the script and tested it in-game. I've intentionally left it out from V3 because for a 6th lvl spell it was really too powerful. A Greater Mummy (or Mummy Lord in 3ed) can probably match (if not outmatch) a Genie in terms of effectiveness and it has several advantages too:

- very high physical resistances

- immunity to A LOT of effects (mind-affecting abilities, poisons, diseases, ...)

- cleric spells of 1st to 5th lvl (while Genies use spells available to the summoner himself)

I have an idea - use it for Mummy Dust (18 HD) as HLA.

Eh eh, I had a Bone Golem in mind for Necromancers HLA, but we'll see.

[Ardanis]

BAMs

Yeah, I'd probably prefer this solution too, but both solutions require new bams (either tons of Monster Summoning-like bams, or a couple of unique bams to replace MS ones)...thus we'll see.

I did manage to draw a couple for new traps. Doable, if tedious.

 

While we're at bams, what do you think of IWD2/NWN2 colorful style as an optional comp?

 

Elementals

- 16HD x8 Hit Points plus 6x10 CON bonus = 188 hit points

3E's uncapped hp bonus at 10+ levels is the only thing I haven't tried to consider. It all makes sense now. But still, coupled with physical resistance it's slightly too much for 6th spell. That is, unless we've already settled on moving Greaters to 8th row.

 

Summon Djinni/Efreeti

I knew you'd say that, but I was actually saying that I don't see the benefit for players, not that it wasn't doable.

Oh, so you knew then, didn't you? Man, I hadn't known it myself yet

 

I can't argue about it not offering some benefit, that's true. But once again, is there a benefit to be found in several copies of basically the same spell? I'm not trying to push my will through if some have objections, but if els are to share one room (Princes do so since vanilla, btw) and priest's spell selection is a subject to their alignment then I would find it illogical to distinguish genies.

[Demivrgvs]

BAMs

Yeah, I'd probably prefer this solution too, but both solutions require new bams (either tons of Monster Summoning-like bams, or a couple of unique bams to replace MS ones)...thus we'll see.

I did manage to draw a couple for new traps. Doable, if tedious.

If you can work on it you're welcome!

 

While we're at bams, what do you think of IWD2/NWN2 colorful style as an optional comp?

Mmm, fancy, but not great imo. I actually think BG2 pattern is "easier to read" because you have offensive spells in red, defensive ones in blue and "neutral" ones (e.g. illusions, divinations) in white. Anyway, if for some reason you want to spend your time re-doing all bams in a IWD style I obviously wouldn't mind granting such option to players within SR.

 

 

Elementals

- 16HD x8 Hit Points plus 6x10 CON bonus = 188 hit points

3E's uncapped hp bonus at 10+ levels is the only thing I haven't tried to consider. It all makes sense now. But still, coupled with physical resistance it's slightly too much for 6th spell. That is, unless we've already settled on moving Greaters to 8th row.

Actually I've kept AD&D (silly) cap at 10th lvl, else it would have been 6x16 CON bonus.

 

Regarding Greater Elementals, I may agree they're a tad powerful for a 6th lvl spell right now, but are you sure they are worth an 8th lvl one? Elemental Swarm or Elder Elementals (20HD) would probably be more appropriate in terms of power lvl imo.

 

 

Summon Djinni/Efreeti

I can't argue about it not offering some benefit, that's true. But once again, is there a benefit to be found in several copies of basically the same spell? I'm not trying to push my will through if some have objections, but if els are to share one room (Princes do so since vanilla, btw) and priest's spell selection is a subject to their alignment then I would find it illogical to distinguish genies.

I've to think about it a little more...and then even more when I'm actually starting to actively work on SR V4.

 

Regarding Elemental Princes if we make them work as innates I'd actually make them three different abilities and let the druid cast each of them only once per day.

[Ardanis]

Elementals

Regarding Greater Elementals, I may agree they're a tad powerful for a 6th lvl spell right now, but are you sure they are worth an 8th lvl one? Elemental Swarm or Elder Elementals (20HD) would probably be more appropriate in terms of power lvl imo.

It then is safe to assume Greater as 7th spell. Elder, ok, let it be 8th.

Both certainly have much higher HD than one'd expect from 7th/8th spells, but they have no special abilities and are a subject to banishment.

 

Then what for 9th? Further advancement aka Monolith/Prince sound logical, and Complete Arcane does indeed offer Summon Elemental Monolith (36HD) for regular use. But it would render Planetars much less attractive, yes? Leaving it a regular monolith, not a Prince (is it per PnP, btw?) may work, but if it's banishable then why bother, and if it's not then what's the point of Planetars would be? Plus it may confuse AI a bit when evaluating a threat, although it should be fixable.

 

Swarm then, I suppose. Made up of whom, 12HDs or 16HDs? I'm inclined to vote for 16HDs, as I doubt they can stand a chance against Pit Fiend, but would be a fair match for Planetar.

[Kalindor]

Elementals

Just my 2 cents: It seems more appropriate to me to have the high-powered elemental summons to be part of the druid's arsenal rather than the mage's. I would also personally rather not have an elemental summoning spell in each spell level from 7-9th as it seems quite uncreative, even if it is effective in combat...

[Dermit]

^ 2nd that, there is a whole monster manual that could be used for higher summoning spells.

[Jarno Mikkola]

A separate component would be nice however. But I think basic summons don't need to exceed the cap of 5 to be powerful spells.

Question, what are these 'basic summons' ?

See, I would see them as the Elementals spells that are of 6th to 8th level and the leaders that are cast-able somewhere around the 10th to 30th level, while their minions are just there for cannon fodder(so they have no cap).

And is there such a mod that does acceptable results with the summon cap removal without altering he spells to mode X(it's own version of the spell)?

 

As my suggestion is in the middle field, Max of 1 Avatar(Planetar, Deva, HLA monster, Projected Image, Simulacrum), 5 Summoned allies(Elementals, Djinni, Efreeti... Ogre Mage), 1 Familiar, X amount fiends, and Y amount of cannon fodder ...

And this also goes to explain how the Liches etc. do also the thinking, as they use the Simulacrum etc spells, they cannot cast an Planetars to defend themselves with... or at least the vanilla Liches didn't, so they cast fiends to do the dirty work.

[Salk]

Renaming spells

Well, why not just remove the Conjure/Creature/etc. words and put everything as is: By Spell Levels;

1) Summon Kobolds

2) Summon Hobgoblins

3) Summon Gnolls

4) Summon Ogres

5) Summon Elemental (HD8)

6) Summon Genie

7) Summon Elemental Swarm, this spell is 3 Elementals (HD8)

8) Summon Greater Elemental (HD16)

9) Summon Ancient Elemental (HD20+)

Or whatever...

I support this. I rather like more colorful and descriptive spell names as opposed to greater standardization like renaming the conjure elementals into "summon creature --".

Yeah, I'd probably prefer this solution too, but both solutions require new bams (either tons of Monster Summoning-like bams, or a couple of unique bams to replace MS ones)...thus we'll see.

 

I am against this change instead.

 

It breaks the AD&D 2nd Ed. PnP tradition for spell naming. While very few exceptions might be acceptable, I find this change not really necessary.

[Shaitan]

I understand Salk.

 

I'm indifferent however.

[Demivrgvs]

Elementals

Just my 2 cents: It seems more appropriate to me to have the high-powered elemental summons to be part of the druid's arsenal rather than the mage's. I would also personally rather not have an elemental summoning spell in each spell level from 7-9th as it seems quite uncreative, even if it is effective in combat...

^ 2nd that, there is a whole monster manual that could be used for higher summoning spells.

I agree that having 5 Conjure Elemental spells (from 5th to 9th spell lvl) is not a great solution. Personally I'd say we shouldn't go for more than 3 different versions (Lesser, "normal" and Greater/Elder).

 

That being said, the PnP rules don't help us much when it comes to find good summons for mid-high lvl spells. Summon Monster tables found in the 3ed PHB use:

* neutral aligned creatures - elementals for in each and every level (from tiny elementals to elder ones); the only neutral aligned unique creatures are the Janni (a weak Genie in the 6th lvl table) and the Invisible Stalker (7th lvl table)

* good aligned creatures - celestial animals (a Celestial Bear is a silly concept imo), few unique celestial beings (e.g. Archons, Eladrins, ...) and the well known Djinni (7th lvl table)

* evil aligned creatures - fiendish animals (for some reason fiendish spiders and snakes are less silly than celestial animals imo), and few unique fiends (obviously weaker than those summoned vua Gate-like spells)

 

AD&D rules are more generic because they simply suggest the power lvl of the creatures you can summon with MS spells, and let the DM choose the creatures. MS spells within AD&D are even weaker than 3ed ones, and they are really unappealing imo (how can 1HD creatures summoned via 3rd lvl spells be appealing? ).

 

Long story short, I'm not following PnP that much for these spells.

 

I suggested to add a couple of MS spells only because I think summons are the main defining feature of Conjurers and it's not right (despite AD&D rules) to let them without anything to summon until they reach 5th lvl. Other than that the only spell level which I felt needed a good summoning spell is the 8th lvl one (there's only Summon Fiend which doesn't count as one imo), because I thought nothing could match Planetars in the 9th lvl slot. If we make HLAs work as innates (and you've quite convinced me on that) then we probably need to grant Conjurers a "normal" 9th lvl summoning spell too.

 

Feel free to suggest creatures for those spells, as my only idea was to use golems, and I'm not too sure about it.

 

 

Renaming spells

Well, why not just remove the Conjure/Creature/etc. words and put everything as is: By Spell Levels;

1) Summon Kobolds

2) Summon Hobgoblins

3) Summon Gnolls

4) Summon Ogres

5) Summon Elemental (HD8)

6) Summon Genie

7) Summon Elemental Swarm, this spell is 3 Elementals (HD8)

8) Summon Greater Elemental (HD16)

9) Summon Ancient Elemental (HD20+)

Or whatever...

I support this. I rather like more colorful and descriptive spell names as opposed to greater standardization like renaming the conjure elementals into "summon creature --".

Yeah, I'd probably prefer this solution too, but both solutions require new bams (either tons of Monster Summoning-like bams, or a couple of unique bams to replace MS ones)...thus we'll see.

 

I am against this change instead.

 

It breaks the AD&D 2nd Ed. PnP tradition for spell naming. While very few exceptions might be acceptable, I find this change not really necessary.

I'm more or less indifferent like Shaitan. I said I'd probably prefer Jarno's suggestion over renaming unique names into Monster X (e.g. Summon Djinni into Monster Summoning VII), but keeping vanilla's setting is fine (Monster Summoning X for "basic summons" and unique names for mid-high lvl summons).

[Dermit]

Feel free to suggest creatures for those spells, as my only idea was to use golems, and I'm not too sure about it.

 

Constructs would be cool, though battle horrors would seem more appropriate. Doesn't feel quite like a summoning spell though, unless you're whisking away some wizard's already made sentinels.

 

I'll think up some more later, but I think it would be good to continue in the line of the earlier level's more common monsters. Trolls, minotaurs, sahuagin or kuo-toa, yuan-ti, giants, basilisks, umber hulks and at higher levels maybe beholders or rakshasas.

 

Best thing is that all those creatures have different varieties, so there could be some scaling like you did with the early levels.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Trolls, ... basilisks... maybe beholders or rakshasas.

Well, the basilisks and beholder are useless as summons, see their attacks work from a script, and so you really cannot order them to attack anyone as the script gets undone. The trolls have the same trouble with the 'death' script.

 

While the Rakshasas, well they are immune to all spells up to the 7th level, and they are caster, making them quite casters...