Kit Revisions (Monks)

[kreso]

+3 isn't really important until ToB, even there it isn't crucial. Monks get extra apr with any weapon they can use, so you can use a sword or whatever those few select times (I used Dragonslayer for +3/Equilizer as +4).

[bradinmemph]

+3 isn't really important until ToB, even there it isn't crucial. Monks get extra apr with any weapon they can use, so you can use a sword or whatever those few select times (I used Dragonslayer for +3/Equilizer as +4).

@ kreso but that is exactly the problem saying "oh a monk can use a sword ... its a stylistic thing.. a character who spends his whol;e life specializing and improving unarmed to such an extent.. having to go find a high lvl sword??? to deal with x creature.. "hey mate all your skills are useless....you should have just saved yourself the hassle and been a fighter.. umm you diont say to wizard or priest.geeee sorry you should just use a sword..... the monk should have some viable.. unarmed way of dealing with the situation.. like i said if youre afraid of power make a a sequence of 2 HLA and limit the duration...

note HLA so to say TOB is kinda already implied......just cause a monk can use a sword.. doesnt mean its the right way tyo go it feels totally wrong.. ...

yes a solution exsit now as youve said.. but this is about improving things.. making better more sensible more stylisitic solutions.. as much as creating entire new content..

 

@demi

ahh the better stress on weapons is a consideration ..but in the wrong direction IMO ..and there are a fair number of occassions for better than +3 even better than +4 to hits needed.... "mantle.. etc...... if you use scs and sr which i do.. a lot of the tob and some of the Soa battles.. just from spell protections...

things other classes all have logical ways of circumventing.. telling a monk.. gee mate shoulda been a straight fighter..go find a weapon.. shrug.. personally i like the monk more unarmed focused and feel throwing the extra +1 apr with weaps is giving in and watering it down... from its focus.as concept..

but i can totally appreciate you wanting other players.. fyi im speaking as someone running mopnk and druids thru bgee/2ee right now

Edited April 2, 2015 by bradinmemph

[Jarno Mikkola]

+3 isn't really important until ToB, even there it isn't crucial.

Yeah, just the various other item properties are... dun dun dun.

 

Monks get extra apr with any weapon they can use, so you can use a sword or whatever those few select times .

In which iteration is this ? You have to tell that ... <pokes the first post in this light> So monks will be hitting 5 times at level 18 with any weapons they can use ? ... REALLY !

It says unarmed attacks...

Edited April 2, 2015 by Jarno Mikkola

[subtledoctor]

To give a different perspective: I just don't see this as necessary. The number of times it comes up is very small. Yes mages can cast mantle but if someone's *hands* are innately able to hit as +4/5, permanently, then you've just rendered those high-level spells completely useless. It would ruin the AI even worse than it already is if SR and SCS are not present.

 

It's not the end of the world... but all of these things need to be balanced. My monks have higher enchantment and extra APR, but the fist damage is drastically reduced in exchange. Total output remains about the same, and I give them more utility (they can hit creatures with PfMW).

 

It would work as an HLA, definitely, with a relatively short duration. Here's another idea: add an effect to SR's Breach that temporarily lowers creatures' innate resistance to weapon + levels. It's in the spirit of the spell and I don't think it would unbalance things... (hmm, maybe I'll do this myself and playtest it.)

 

By the way:

 

KR's Monk is much more proficient than vanilla monk when using weapons because the base +1 apr is applied to them.

How do I put this elegantly and succinctly... that sounds crazeballs. Monks, the guys who are so devoted to training to fight with their hands, are strictly better with weapons than anyone else? (At least, until level 7 or so.) Because, it sounds like that's the result here.

Edited April 2, 2015 by subtledoctor

[bradinmemph]

i wasnt suggesting perm at all i said make it a hla with limited dur.....and i never meant for the +4/+5 to count for damage bonus... nor for to hit bonus to improve thac0 just for puposes of can hit +4/+5 needed enchants....

 

hmm i like the lower to hit resist as a aspect of breach.. or pierce magic..thats interesting..

[kreso]

 

@ kreso but that is exactly the problem saying "oh a monk can use a sword ... its a stylistic thing.. a character who spends his whol;e life specializing and improving unarmed to such an extent.. having to go find a high lvl sword??? to deal with x creature.. "

You will need a sword regardless of fists being +2, +3, or +10. Blunt won't hit everything.

 

 

 

+3 isn't really important until ToB, even there it isn't crucial.

Yeah, just the various other item properties are... dun dun dun.

Yeah, what else is new?

 

How do I put this elegantly and succinctly... that sounds crazeballs. Monks, the guys who are so devoted to training to fight with their hands, are strictly better with weapons than anyone else? (At least, until level 7 or so.) Because, it sounds like that's the result here.

They aren't better with weapons. They attack faster early on, and that "advantage" (hardly an advantage, because they'll be missing far more often than a fighter or anybody who can put ** in a weapon) diminishes quickly.

[subtledoctor]

They aren't better with weapons. They attack faster early on, and that "advantage" (hardly an advantage, because they'll be missing far more often than a fighter or anybody who can put ** in a weapon) diminishes quickly.

I disagree. I would rather have 2 APR and 19 thac0 than 1.5 APR and 17 thac0. 33% more chances to hit, vs. a ~10-20% lower chance to land a blow. And even if it's a close call math-wise and any advantage dimnishes over time... IMHO it shouldn't be a close call, and there should *never* be an advantage. Skill with weapons is fighters' special ability. No other class should be better at it.

 

Beyond the math, I just don't see the rationale for this. What is it about monks, story-wise, that suggests they can wield weapons faster and with more chances to strike foes than any other character with the same level of proficiency.

 

I'm not saying I can't be convinced; I'm just saying I don't get it. So feel free to explain it. From here, it just seems like a freebie. It's trivially simply to give them extra APR with fists, and that would give players an interesting choice to make as far as using wespons or using fists. And it reflects how they can use both fists fairly well, akin to dual-wielding. Whereas extra APR with a single weapon represents... what?

 

(Not trying to be contentious, I'm just curious how this decision was made.)

Edited April 2, 2015 by subtledoctor

[Jarno Mikkola]

(Not trying to be contentious, I'm just curious how this decision was made.)

Well, they could add it as an effect to the .cre file via the kit rather than to the fist item affecting it. But that's bad in most cases. And yes, it can be goooone around too. So rather than just adding the attacks to either the item or kit, use both so they are synched based around the character level.

Level 1 get unarmed attack rate bonus(through the item), at level 4 get another(via fist), at level 7 get another (via kit effect), at level 10 another via fist etc... how ever one wishes to balance the thing.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Jarno Mikkola

[subtledoctor]

Sorry if unclear. I meant, *why* was the decision made.

[Demivrgvs]

I'm not saying I can't be convinced; I'm just saying I don't get it. So feel free to explain it. From here, it just seems like a freebie. It's trivially simply to give them extra APR with fists, and that would give players an interesting choice to make as far as using wespons or using fists. And it reflects how they can use both fists fairly well, akin to dual-wielding. Whereas extra APR with a single weapon represents... what?

I seem to recall some issues with +1 apr applied directly to fists but let's assume for now we can make it work one way or another.

 

The fixed +1 apr at level 1 is KR's take on PnP Flurry of Blows, and even there the ability can be used with the few weapons available to the monk. In theory the monk should alternate weapon attacks with martial arts (e.g. the additional apr could be a kick or something similar) but that is not doable with BG engine.

 

As a player (Kalindor I think) pointed out early after the first draft of KR's monk, this +1 apr is actually the only reason you may consider using a weapon sometime, without it we may as well give the monk no weapon proficiency because of how badly he would perform with them. Note that even at level 1 your fist deals as much damage as a short sword, but strike faster (fist speed factor is 0 or 1, I have to check) and deal crushing dmg (superior to pierce in almost all cases). With level ups, unarmed attacks get even more damaging while remaining lighting fast.

 

When it comes to fighter vs. monk: yeah, KR's monk gets the +1 apr, but the fighter is more accurate and deal more damage with that weapon, not to mention he has more hit points, and he can equip armor, shield, helmet, etc. which means the fighter AC is waay better (with IR the armor even grants damage reduction). The staying power of a True Fighter is unmatched imo, and you cannot just pick one aspect of a class if you want to compare them.

[bradinmemph]

hmm dvkshout.spl uses webtrav.pro .. which is a single target pro instead of dvkshout.pro??

[Demivrgvs]

hmm dvkshout.spl uses webtrav.pro .. which is a single target pro instead of dvkshout.pro? ?

? On a fresh install it looks fine, and I think other beta testers used it without problems.

[bradinmemph]

hmmm im using the v20 beta ...maybe i dont have the right link

[Valandil]

I have tested it yesterday and here is my first feedback. As someone reported, the monk has 3% in magical resistance. Btw it felt strange to see him walk like others without boots of speed as I am used to seeing him run after his opponents ^^.

 

The ki pool abilities are interesting and the fact that you can choose several times the abilitie that you want to use more often in a specific situation like more wholeness of body to heal yourself after a difficult battle or ki arrows against wizards is very helpful but I'm not a huge fan to click twice, one to access to abilities and another to choose the one you want. The incantation is doubled but I know it's necessary to implement that way.

 

When I read the description I thought that we would be able to choose multiple times the abilitie slow time but it's not the case and it's better to do it just once.

 

About ki step which copy the dimension door animation, I would have preferred without it just like faster than the eye of refinements.

 

Another point is about saves, normally the monk should have the betters. By reading the revised table STT forum, the monk has the priests or the fighters? 4/6/4/8/6 or 4/8/4/6/8? well there's not a gap like vanilla's, really like it but my monk had at high level 6/6/6/6/6. I tried with another class, the shapeshifter and same error he should have 4/8/4/6/8 and he had 4/8/6/6/8 or something like that.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Valandil

[kreso]

Another point is about saves, normally the monk should have the betters. By reading the revised table STT forum, the monk has the priests or the fighters? 4/6/4/8/6 or 4/8/4/6/8? well there's not a gap like vanilla's, really like it but my monk had at high level 6/6/6/6/6. I tried with another class, the shapeshifter and same error he should have 4/8/4/6/8 and he had 4/8/6/6/8 or something like that.

Monk has the best overall saves with KR. It's intended.