Jump to content

Critical hit aversion

Recommended Posts

Hi from Poland We started to play at VaS a couple of days ago and we still cant agree when is the change to critical hit. First option is on natural 6 roll only, and the second on 6 roll after all modification to DD. Please help. Yeah, I know... this is obviuose, but...

The game uses a d20, or twenty sided dice, not d6's.


And the natural critical hit is only on the 20's. There are weapons and other things that can allow you to critical hit on 19's too, but that's only if it's a hit after the modifications. The natural 20 ALWAYS hits.

Link to comment

There is pretty old topic, I'm swear, I'm re-read it twice or thrice, and did not get managed to realize what you all actually speak for.

I'm played few times with IR+SR+SCS+SoB with Critical Hits Aversion. I'm got strange feelings, because I'm feel more limited, but to be fair - there is was enough items to make 3-4 chars to be immune and happy, and if i'm not mistaken - there is was two named helmets with this property (or it was one helmet and few armors?). No matter. This part more than fine, and actually funny at start (until you get this items). Last is bit annoying, because characters finally receive this items, get locked-in to them forever. And I'm never was impressed with in-game itemization actually, there is exist items for everyone and for everything, but at same time there is no items for every PC I'm ever play. IR partially solves this issue in a great way, but because Critical Hit Aversion limits player choice(s) - this makes hardy thing about. Again, there is nothing wrong nor with mod, nor with component or idea, so my words mostly express my personal preferences (like all we do).

So, the real issue is what engine (in first place) and may be some mods doesn't understand what they do:

All we know what 20 attack roll is "automatic hit". Right? Also we know what there is also critical hit (doubles damage): This generally means what group of 10x any cobolds (no need to buff them) on average will hit you with 100% chance every round (assuming they are using unmodded 2APR shortbow). And they do it with critical hit. With modded tuned down bow APR - this is guaranteed incoming damn critical hits almost every round anyway, (one round 50% - other round 100%), there is before any other APR bonuses if they might have. Your AC strictly gives you just nothing, because this groups guaranteed to hit. You can buff self to the roof, you can debuff them, but there is no matter: Obscuring Mist? Huh! We will crit you anyway, so we don't care about debuffs. :)

This also means what, whenever we raise APR, our guaranteed to-hit chance are grow linearly. E.g. character with 1APR have 5% guaranteed hit. Character with 2APR have 10%, and with 3APR have 15% guaranteed hit chance per round, and as cherry on the cake - doesn't forget what this is also guaranteed critical hit (e.g. with doubled damange, which additionally easy to get).

(Side Note): Also take in account, what chances are rely on RNG (random number generator), which rarely implemented to have discrete uniform distribution. Usually, this statistically achieved by any standard RNG, but only over statistically-acceptable ranges, which never occurs in games. E.g. for players there is no matter RNG characteristics if they are mathematically correct, but achieved only over few billion rollss (10000 rolls - no matter). All what is important is about 5..10 rolls in a row (depending on fight duration), and BGEE fairly do this thing bad (like many others). There is nothing special to BG/EE actually, there is just how efficient algorithms works (and BG/EE can calculate 200d rolls fairly easily without performance issues). But there is also how outcome works: you almost never hit 5% chance thrice in a row, but 15% you can notice more often - this happens (not so often still). I'm just noting what this advantage comes not from chance per-se, but from how it technically rolled. In TQ or GD games there is sometimes looks even more stupidly: there is easy to see how character perform 5% chance action also five times in a row, and this completely depends to internals / how total game do rolls, but then... you never see to happens this when it mostly needed. :)

And after what is already mention above - most interesting/stupid/limiting thing becomes: just give weapon style bonus to someone which extends critical hit range (or alternatively just give weapon with one more APR) => both available choice for 1 level PC.

And there is source of problem: there is no "automatic hit" or "critical hit" in game engine, there is only critical hits exist which also are automatic hits. Once you got extended range (say 19-20) - you receive guaranteed hit on 19+ natural roll, even if you can't hit in target in any other way, and to make things worse - this is critical hit with doubled damage. Raise crit range even more - this becomes even worse.

Generally, there is absolutely okay mechanics, we just should keep in mind, what it scales multiplicatively with number of attackers, with numbers of attacks (per round) and with critical hit range. And all of this 3 components stacks multiplicatively. See why topic is so hard? To be truly mysterious fighter, only thing you need is only enough APR and enough critical hit range, and even if your THAC0 is 20 like at level 1 - you will be efficient regardless to how enemy AC is. To be bit more serious, 10% crit chance and 3 APR gives you what you receives 30% guaranteed hit per round (on average of course), and this damn too good. Add here what you still can land regular hits (which would require you to have some THAC0 for sure, but best part of this, what any class already progress in it in some degrees, so there is not a thing on which PC work).

And once we got this facts together: there is should be clear - there is really nothing wrong with Critical Hits Aversion component. The real issue lands of how crits work. And there is possible address this problem in few ways:

1. Simplest: Just remove crit range modifiers from weapon styles. E.g. every creature in game might crit, but never more than 5% per attack. This not perfect, but with giving fact of how easy is to implement - there is choice to consider. Still, needs to keep in mind, what any creature with 2APR have actually doubled auto-hit & auto-crit chance, so scaling basically is the same, but degree of insanity will be lessened in both ways (for PC and for enemies).

In addition to (1) - there is nothing wrong when PC have slightly increased crit range, for example by wearing unique "Keen" weapon or by any other source available only to him. This generally still scales with APR, but nothing comparable to a way, how environment scales against player, and this doesn't scales with number of characters in party.

In addition to (1) - probably there is can be done selectively (e.g. effectively remove chance to ever crit for some kind of enemies), but that's really not rule design, but encounter design, which, I'm guess, should not be based on broken rules.

2. Harder and not so clear with different advantages and disadvantages: is - whenever creature get critted, is protect he from other critical for some duration. I'm believe something similar already done in IWDEE game, and probably some how can be adopted into BGEE. I'm never tried this option, and there is not very clear for me how it might work in practice, but it might protect you from being critted in meat pieces in one round (i guess it applies instantly?), and this also might work good, to protect poor gibberlings to be critted by 6x party members from bow/whatever. I'm feel, something similar was described above.

3. Mix of both. :)

4. (Very Hard): Buff PC or Enemy HP to reasonable values. This is also can help, however, I'm guess not popular option. But there is mind-blank option: if monsters die from one critical hit - there is probably something not balanced properly. Same applies in reverse. Monsters need careful HP buff anyway, but for topic this most likely not a solution, due to issue lands in 3x-5x range, while this option viable without whole rules rewrite only to fix some nuisances. Still there is available handle to pull.

PS: So, my, general idea, what before engine limitation(s) and rules, there is just non-sense THW and SWS styles which doesn't account to how actually engine work. Since criticals also give auto-hitting property - this should be locked forever to 5% (or even to 0%), with possibility to small exception(s). :)

PPS: I'm should say, what there is mostly my vision/imagination, and kind of preference, except what I'm again re-test how crits work in BGEE 2.6.6 just now, and crits are autohits. Always. Crits are good by itself, but autohits are too good. In my taste 5% except items, or 0% with slightly more items is way to go. There is practically no other way to manage this because it naturally scaled with things which is not over our control (number of attacks or number of attackers are natural and not scalable), with exception to (2) if can make it work over BG/EE games - then also tempting choice, say crit but not more often than 2-3 rounds.

Edited by Lixiss
Link to comment

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Create New...