Rakshasas and Breach

[subtledoctor]

Well, my actual mod list for BGT is much longer than that. I'm using 90 different mods together at the moment.

 

The six I mentioned above, plus BG2Tweaks, aTweaks, FPPS and Refinements HLAs - so those ten mods - are the core of the rules tweaks and kits for my ideal game. I use a few other smaller ones as well like kTweaks and the_Bigg's Tweaks and d0tweaks etc...

 

Content mods are a separate beast, I use about 60 of them. But job one is setting the rules you want to play by - thus, discussions like this thread!

[toxin]

Apologies for my ignorance, but what is FPPS? (EDIT - figured out it must be Full Plate And Packing Steel)

Is FPPS considered an item mod as far as installation order goes (as suggested in your site)?

Also, are all these mods you mention compatible with the enhanced edition?

[subtledoctor]

Full Plate & Packing Steel. Hosted right here on G3!

http://gibberlings3.net/forums/index.php?showforum=163

 

(Though I must say I use a custom version of the FPPS settings file to fine-tune armor resistances, and a custom version of the IR armors settings file, so that they work together.)

 

Also on that list, Tome & Blood is a great EE-only mod that is currently being converted to pre-EE compatibility; Might & Guile is my own mod, which I just released yesterday; and Faiths & Powers is a mod I'm working on now, which be a bit like Divine Remix, but go further: it will have a working sphere system, revised item usability, and ~40+ kits in the cleric, druid, and paladin classes.

[toxin]

Wow, you are a busy man

[Shaitan]

Working-spree!

 

What's Might & Guile about?

[subtledoctor]

It's basically my Scales of Balance mod, streamlined and re-branded. I took the wizard specialists out and donated them to Tome & Blood; and I took the priest stuff out to form the foundation of Faiths & Powers. The rest of it, with game tweaks, warrior tweaks/kits, and rogue tweaks/kits, I'm rebranding as Might & Guile.

https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/43878/might-and-guile-a-tweak-mod-and-kit-pack-for-warriors-and-rogues

[kreso]

 

Likewise, I don't feel as if Remove/Dispel are all that OP as stated in this thread. It doesn't remove Spell protections even if it's succesfull.

If used against player, careful positioning mitigates it. If used against AI, SI:Abj and levels can work for them.

 

 

For a player of your experience I'm puzzled you can't see how Dispel is both OP and a detriment to the gameplay.

I simply don't find it that OP. It may work, it may not, and it doesn't do anything vs spell protections. Keep in mind I play with SR where spell deflections keep mages safe from AoE. So it's not like a Dispel+ADHW will kill them all.

 

 

 

The only ones that can be protected by it are mages with SI:Abj. Everyone else has no counter.

They don't have a counter, but dispel isn't an automatic sucess. Likewise, it's a legit tactic to send some fighter (say berserker/Shield of Harmony user or similar) to "absorb" the initial dispel enemies use.

 

 

 

F.e. try fighting an aTweak'ed Baalor. Permanent fire aura, 15% no save death on hit, dispel at will. Buffed with fire protection and death wards the party moves to engage the demon. A moment later heads fly and bodies crisp, since all the buffs are gone from the whole party. There's no other way to win the fight than don items that grant the same protections and charge at it. Who's the culprit on this case?

Did that. The single item (w/o IR) giving this immunity in non-modded game is Hindo's +4. To get it, you'll have to fight numerous Balors. (fwiw, in vanilla game a cleric with Amulet of Power casts DW instantly; and DW doesn't have a "flying" animation+it can be cast at range. Those things help immensly). Saying that they can't be fought w/o Hindo's is a bit of an overstatement.

[toxin]

I simply don't find it that OP.

 

A typical buffing of my party may look like this:

• Barkskin (X3)
• CC (X5)
• NPP (X5)
• Aid (X3)
• Haste
• Bless
• Resist Fear
• Protection From Evil (X5)
• Armor of Faith (X2)
• Stoneskin
• Mirror Image
• Blur

That's 80 levels of spells that can be dispelled by a single 3rd level spell (with very high chances depending on level).

If you don't see how that's OP then my friend, you have been caught off guard with Power Word: Blind

 

It may work, it may not

 

 

Except where it really counts in the tough battles where you are out-leveled (many times by 5 levels easily) and the opponent's caster has 95% of success.

 

and it doesn't do anything vs spell protections. Keep in mind I play with SR where spell deflections keep mages safe from AoE. So it's not like a Dispel+ADHW will kill them all.

 

 

Spell deflections protecting from AoE is non-standard and non-PnP. More power to you for playing like this, but SR should cater to all players (or at least the majority).

 

it's a legit tactic to send some fighter (say berserker/Shield of Harmony user or similar) to "absorb" the initial dispel enemies use.

 

 

This is debatable (one could say this is exploiting the AI), and not practical in many cases (tight quarters, enemies teleporting in on you, etc). Besides, some enemies will just cast it again later. Not to mention it can also be OP when you cast it.

[kreso]

That's 80 levels of spells that can be dispelled by a single 3rd level spell (with very high chances depending on level).

If you don't see how that's OP then my friend, you have been caught off guard with Power Word: Blind

If you allow all party members to get hit by it...

Keep in mind that Dispel is checked against each caster buff (i.e. Barkskin may stay while Haste and other mage buffs get removed). What can be done vs dispels is making some buffs undispellable; which is imo far better than nerfing dispel to oblivion.

 

 

 

 

It may work, it may not

 

 

Except where it really counts in the tough battles where you are out-leveled (many times by 5 levels easily) and the opponent's caster has 95% of success.

There really aren't many such oponnents. Seriously.

[toxin]

If you allow all party members to get hit by it...

 

The fact that it's possible is enough to make it OP to my eyes. And even if only some of your party is exposed (sometimes it's hard to achieve even that), it's still OP in my book.

 

Keep in mind that Dispel is checked against each caster buff (i.e. Barkskin may stay while Haste and other mage buffs get removed)

 

Actually I believe that for any given character affected, either all buffs from the same caster are dispelled or none are. At least that's the behavior I and several others have witnessed.

 

What can be done vs dispels is making some buffs undispellable; which is imo far better than nerfing dispel to oblivion.

 

Two suggestions that came up were to make it single-target or keep it AoE but have it dispel only one buff per affected character. This is what the d20 dispel looks like (you can choose whether to go single-target or AoE with single buff per target). I wouldn't see either as being nerfed to oblivion. In fact I would still consider it somewhat OP for a 3rd level spell, but something like mass dispelling screen (or some form of a dispelling screen that can be cast on a character other than the caster) would go a long way to balance it out.

 

There really aren't many such oponnents. Seriously.

 

I think it's fair to say that many (most?) of the more dangerous casters you deal with are higher level than you. That means 60%-99% of success. Besides, in my book it's worth balancing even a handful of encounters - especially when they ought to be some of the most difficult ones!

[cipher]

Glad you replied, I appreciate you letting me know your view in detail.

I simply don't find it that OP. It may work, it may not, and it doesn't do anything vs spell protections. Keep in mind I play with SR where spell deflections keep mages safe from AoE. So it's not like a Dispel+ADHW will kill them all.

toxin already covered many points in his post, mainly that enemies that matter outlevel you significantly, so their dispel success is an almost guaranteed outcome.
AoE spell deflection is really an experimental SR feature and not something you can count on when discussing the intricacies of the spell system.

 

I too am trying this component atm and it's a bit flaky. I can't say that I like it. Usually in an AoE heavy fight they are gone far too quickly and then the mage is left exposed to single target spells that are more dangerous. Furthermore does it protect from all AoE spells? Chaos, Symbols, Confusion etc.? I'm under the impression that is not, but I need to test this specifically.

They don't have a counter, but dispel isn't an automatic sucess. Likewise, it's a legit tactic to send some fighter (say berserker/Shield of Harmony user or similar) to "absorb" the initial dispel enemies use.

 

Yeah, I agree with toxin, it feels cheep and simply doesn't work if there's at-will dispel in play.

Did that. The single item (w/o IR) giving this immunity in non-modded game is Hindo's +4. To get it, you'll have to fight numerous Balors. (fwiw, in vanilla game a cleric with Amulet of Power casts DW instantly; and DW doesn't have a "flying" animation+it can be cast at range. Those things help immensly). Saying that they can't be fought w/o Hindo's is a bit of an overstatement.

 

Well, if no IR, then why not assume no aTweaks either? No dispel at will, no flaming aura, no vorpal hit.
To be honest though you did make me wonder how aVENGER imagined the fight would go down in a vanilla game... Damn, I don't think I'd like that very much. Keep in mind that the aT demons have teleport and smart targeting. Dispel is an AoE with 95% success at that point and you can't have THAT many Death Wards handy. How the hell did you manage that?

What can be done vs dispels is making some buffs undispellable; which is imo far better than nerfing dispel to oblivion.

I was tempted to suggest that for a great many spells too.
Since dispel behaviour is hardcoded, it's either undispellable buffs or easier access to protection from dispel. I'm not too enthusiastic for either.
I was thinking at some point that maybe dispel should be the blanket remover of any buff that can't be removed by another way. So Stoneskin, Death Ward, Prot. from [element] etc. would be untouched by Dispel. I'm not sure how good that'd be in practice however.

Note: I have a feeling that we should take that discussion in SR's forum. It started as something relevant to SCS, but it moved to slightly different pastures.

[subtledoctor]

I was thinking at some point that maybe dispel should be the blanket remover of any buff that can't be removed by another way. So Stoneskin, Death Ward, Prot. from [element] etc. would be untouched by Dispel. I'm not sure how good that'd be in practice however.

That's actually a great idea: just remove the overlap so that there are 4 spells that each dispel in different ways: Spell Thrust/Pierce Magic for spell protections, Breach for combat protections, Break Enchantment for curses/etc., and Dispel Magic for everything else.

 

Note: I have a feeling that we should take that discussion in SR's forum. It started as something relevant to SCS, but it moved to slightly different pastures.

Eh, I think the original discussion in this thread has been settled, I don't see a problem letting the discussion wander at this point...

[toxin]

That's actually a great idea: just remove the overlap so that there are 4 spells that each dispel in different ways: Spell Thrust/Pierce Magic for spell protections, Breach for combat protections, Break Enchantment for curses/etc., and Dispel Magic for everything else.

 

 

A step in the right direction but it still won't be refined enough - DM will still dispel CC, NPP, PFE, Aid, Haste, Bless, Resist Fear, Mirror Image, Blur etc.

IMHO if we go this route, it should be more refined - for example illusions can only be dispelled with True Sight (and similar), Haste can only be dispelled by Slow, etc.

 

But even then, it wouldn't be as good as single-target or single buff per character in my eyes. You would still be dead against many combinations dragons (RM + dragon fear), Ulitharid (RM + psionic blasts), Vampires (RM + domination), liches (RM + any mass high level spell really) etc. The ability to mass dispel your protections and then mass exploit your vulnerability with little to no chance of you putting your defenses back up in time is just too much.

 

I hate to sound like a broken record, but all of these issues will be immensely mitigated by the ability to shield non-casters against Dispel Magic (e.g. Mass Dispelling Screen).

[subtledoctor]

... or make Dispel Magic single-target, which is already under consideration.

 

Frankly DM does strike me as the right tool for eliminating general divine buffs/protections.

 

If it was up to me I would combine these: make five categories of enchantments (spell protections, combat protections, illusions, buffs, and curses) and five separate ways to eliminate them (Pierce/Thrust, Breach, Dispel Illusion/True Sight, Didpel Magic, and Break Enchantment, respectively) AND make DM single-target.

 

OR, just make Dispel Magic Power=3 so it can be blocked by GoI, and you have to hit the target with a Pierce before dispelling, just like with SCS-modded Breach.

[Demivrgvs]

... or make Dispel Magic single-target, which is already under consideration.

I was waiting the release of the new build to justify my decision but yeah, that's what I'm going to try out: make Dispel Magic the single target PnP variant.

 

It's a nerf, but while stripping Remove Magic of its AoE would be a plain nerf, in this case Dispel Magic gains some sort of versatility imo because you can reliably use it as a sort of Break Enchantment (the latter should hopefully remain appealing because it doesn't dispel eventual buffs on your ally, and has 100% chance to work).

 

On a side note, I'd probably reduce Remove Magic AoE from 30 to 20 feet radius, but I may be tempted to study more crazy ideas for it considering such spell never existed in PnP.

 

I'm kinda rusty, does the AI (SCS in particular) favor DM over RM or vice-versa?