Dispel/Remove topic (continued from SCS forum)

[kreso]

Pierce Shield is more or less (Pierce Magic + Breach), no? So if DS is negated by Pierce Magic OR Breach, it seems reasonable that Pierce Shield should breach the DS and then also remove a spell protection.

I don't really know how this can be coded. The spell works so it removes both combat & spell protections. Ideally, new Dispel Screen would stop the combat protection removal while spell protection removal part would still work.

Afaik, Pierce Shield itself should be reworked so it "casts" 2 spells - one removing combat; the other removing spell protection, than apply 206 against first one on Dispel Screen, and give it a custom sec type removal so it removes Dispel Screen.....bleh; if you ask me, since Pierce Shield is already thwarted by Spell Shield.

The good thing is that SCS doesn't really use this spell, so at least whatever is done with it won't affect AI none...

Considering all; I'd probably change nothing. Pierce Shield is an 8th level spell; so I can live with it destroying Dispel Screen w/o being absorbed by it, same goes for Spellstrike.

Or, we can make Pierce Shield/Spellstrike "ignore" Dispel Screen altogether. Pierce Shield would remove combat/spell protections, while Dispel Screen would remain active.

Do note that Dispel Screen is a *very* lousy defense by itself, there's no "level check" for it's removal - a level 6 mage can remove it from a level 25 Lich very easilly.

[kreso]

On this:

- I've made a patching code which makes every item/spell in the game remove Dispelling Screen if it uses Dispel opcode. Example, Carsomyr, SoTM Dispel ability; Dispel Arrows, various innates etc. I could/can do the same for things like Slow (I already got custom types for both Slow & Haste); so for example Flail of Ages would dispel Haste from AI fighters with the same probabilty it uses for it's slowing effect. That's kind of cool imo. I'm thinking also about Petrification. (no more "stoning").

The thing is - if this is to be used, Item Revisions now must be installed before Spell Revisions. And generally, as late as possible in install order. (still prior to AI mods, but....late).

I also found a "bug",if you wanna call it that, with SR/Refinements compatibility, regarding Comet/DB and possibly some other HLAs. I've noticed that regardless of install order (i.e. SR after Refinements) I would still get Refinements version of those spells. Turns out, Refinements versions are named differently and as such written down in HLA tables for respective kits/classes - one cannot even pick SR Comet as a HLA for example, only Refinements version (it's code name is different).To make matters worse; SCS will use Refinements HLA's as well if it detects them. This leads to funky stuff such as Deflection not blocking it properly etc.

I'll make a small pacthing code so that if Refinements is present upon install, SR HLA spells are used. Likewise, SCS would then use SR spells as well.

[Salk]

I also found a "bug",if you wanna call it that, with SR/Refinements compatibility, regarding Comet/DB and possibly some other HLAs. I've noticed that regardless of install order (i.e. SR after Refinements) I would still get Refinements version of those spells. Turns out, Refinements versions are named differently and as such written down in HLA tables for respective kits/classes - one cannot even pick SR Comet as a HLA for example, only Refinements version (it's code name is different).To make matters worse; SCS will use Refinements HLA's as well if it detects them. This leads to funky stuff such as Deflection not blocking it properly etc.

I'll make a small pacthing code so that if Refinements is present upon install, SR HLA spells are used. Likewise, SCS would then use SR spells as well.

 

That's very interesting.

 

Good work in detecting this, kreso. Hopefully next SR version will include your fix.

[subtledoctor]

Yeah, Refinements rewrites the whole HLA tables with its own stuff. Makes the mod horribly incompatible with other stuff - my old mad added a single HLA to druids (greater greater werewolf, for shapeshifters) and it was super annoying to deal with the possibility that Refinements might be installed. (Dealing with HLA tables in general is super annoying.)

[kreso]

 

I also found a "bug",if you wanna call it that, with SR/Refinements compatibility, regarding Comet/DB and possibly some other HLAs. I've noticed that regardless of install order (i.e. SR after Refinements) I would still get Refinements version of those spells. Turns out, Refinements versions are named differently and as such written down in HLA tables for respective kits/classes - one cannot even pick SR Comet as a HLA for example, only Refinements version (it's code name is different).To make matters worse; SCS will use Refinements HLA's as well if it detects them. This leads to funky stuff such as Deflection not blocking it properly etc.

I'll make a small pacthing code so that if Refinements is present upon install, SR HLA spells are used. Likewise, SCS would then use SR spells as well.

 

That's very interesting.

 

Good work in detecting this, kreso. Hopefully next SR version will include your fix.

 

On this - I'm doing this right now. Turns out - there's a whole bunch of spells replaced by Refinements. Implosion, Elemental summonings, Greater Elemental summonings, Elemetal Transformations, you name it. And these spells are used regardless of SR/Refinements install order.

Anyhow, my code will detect if Refinements is installed, then copy SR spells over Refinements spell names. That way, if one installs SCS over it, SCS will pick up Refinements install, make copies of Refinements-named spells which will now be as per SR, and use that for full compatibility & consistency.

This will only activate if Refinements is present when SR is installed, if not it is skipped.

If one wants to use Refinements HLAs instead, while still using SR for other spells, simply install Refinements after SR.

[subtledoctor]

Problem is, standard BWP install order is SR - SCS - Refinements.

[kreso]

Problem is, standard BWP install order is SR - SCS - Refinements.

Sigh...still? I've notified them about 2 years ago that this is wrong. Just read SCS readme file, quote:

SCS is fully compatible with the "Refinements" mod, and in particular, will make use of the modified High-Level Abilities introduced by Refinements. Refinements must be installed before SCS for this to work properly. (Yes, I know the Refinements readme says "install me last"; trust me on this.)

 

There is really very little reason; if any; why Refinements should be installed after SR; especially if one want SR changes, not those from Refinements.

Anyhow, this is done, code is sent to Demi, so you may expect better compatibility in next SR version.

[Jarno Mikkola]

 

Problem is, standard BWP install order is SR - SCS - Refinements.

Sigh...still? I've notified them about 2 years ago that this is wrong.

 

Well, no one has updated the BWP since November last year ... you should be looking the BWS install order, and request change to it there, should there be a release of the SR v4, here, via the template. Easy ?

 

And honestly, one could make it very much so that there would be no need to install the Refinements if one wants to. Just add a HLA component.

[agb1]

No need for templates. BWS already installs Refinements before SCS... but after SR currently. Any suggestions for revising SR install order?

[kreso]

No need for templates. BWS already installs Refinements before SCS... but after SR currently. Any suggestions for revising SR install order?

Not yet. I've sent the code to Demivrgvs, if he includes it in the next build then SR can go after Refinements.

Note that some players may still prefer Refinements versions over SR. In that case, SR goes before Refinements.

However, SR component "Spell Deflection blocks AoE spells" won't work vs Refinements-modded HLAs (Comet/DB etc.) unless SR is installed later.

[kreso]

And honestly, one could make it very much so that there would be no need to install the Refinements if one wants to. Just add a HLA component.

True....but it's a very time-consuming task to do so; at least on Refinements-level of detail; where each kit/multiclass gets at least one, in many cases more unique HLA(s). If you're up for the job (or anyone with some skills & free time) I'm all for new HLA tables.

[Jarno Mikkola]

 

And honestly, one could make it very much so that there would be no need to install the Refinements if one wants to. Just add a HLA component.

True....but it's a very time-consuming task to do so; at least on Refinements-level of detail; where each kit/multiclass gets at least one, in many cases more unique HLA(s). If you're up for the job (or anyone with some skills & free time) I'm all for new HLA tables.

 

In case it's not totally obvious, I meant that this component would be in the Kit Revision mod, not in the Spell Revision... just cause. Kit specific tweaks are typically later in the install list as more priority is given to them working than spell tweaks, which is why the Refinements mod is later than the Spell Revision. And that order should STAY.

 

Unique, well make the mage/sorcerer and cleric&ranger&paladin HLA's grant special ability to cast the chosen spell, not ability to cast it as a high level spell...

Set the Fighter-Mage-Thief's HLA table to be a unique table, and add the +1's 6th, 7th and 8th level spell HLA added to the Fighter/Thief class and that's done.

Add those to the schema you already have in Kit Rev's HLAs and that's enough, I think, for a component. Yeah, as a totally separate component from the kits themselves.

[kreso]

Kit specific tweaks are typically later in the install list as more priority is given to them working than spell tweaks, which is why the Refinements mod is later than the Spell Revision. And that order should STAY.

To put it this way - If somebody wants Refinements later than SR, he can install it later; no harm done. If somebody wants SR changes to take predecence, he can now install SR after Refinements and get SR changes, which wouldn't happen before. If BWS/Mr.Scatman or whoever wishes to leave Refinements after SR, I don't care, do as you please. I made this for myself and anybody else who prefers SR spells over Refinements-ones.

[kreso]

A small preview of stuff I've been working on yesterday:

 

Mage here is protected by Dispelling Screen. This is vanilla Carsomyr Keldorn't wielding. (no save dispel)

 

 

 

Hit removes Dispelling Screen.

 

 

 

Next hit actually dispels buffs.

 

 

 

 

Haste & Slow

 

 

Vanilla Flail of Ages.

Keldorn gets slowed.

 

 

 

Now he gets hasted. Notice how the "slowed" icon on his portrait dissapeared. Haste fully overrides slow effect and dispels it, regardless of origin. Viceversa is true as well - slow will override haste.

 

 

 

Slowed again, Haste gets dispelled now.

 

 

All this works regardless of mods installed beforehand.

[kreso]

And more:

 

This also works from item effects.

Vanilla Blackrazor's Hastening effect will dispel Slow:

 

 

And will get removed by slowing spells or items:

 

 

Item Revisions "hastening" items will be handled seperately if needed, given that Haste opcode is no longer used.