Beholder anti-magic rays

[toxin]

I mean, they are absurd. Not only do they completely debuff you, they give you 100% spell failure. This is especially outrageous with Elder orbs - those guys protect themselves with SS+PfMW+PfME+II+... and then take away your ability to counter. You are basically left standing there eating paralization and death rays with nothing to do. That battle in Abazigal's lair with the three Elder Orbs must have been the hardest in the game up to that point (assuming you are even lucky enough to survive some those death/paralysis rays), and you've battled and defeated near-gods and demon princes!

 

Spell shield is the only defense, but non-wizards don't have it, and even wizards will get slapped with an AM ray long before the 5 casting time for SS is over. Even if your wizard does get it off in time, the beholder will just fire another AM ray. Worse, SS doesn't protect against the spell failure component at all (the spell failure icon is absent but the spell failure is there all the same). To top all that off, some of them even dare to have MR!

 

I realize beholders need to be tough, but this is overboard. I suggest some combination of the following:

1. Either remove the spell failure effect or make it more manageable (30-50%)
2. Make the debuff effect more manageable - I realize it can't be disabled since the AI probably relies on it, but a percent of failure could be introduced (possibly even use the DM/RM formula)
3. Provide more ways to defend against the ray, before and/or after the fact (like elixir can cure deafness)
4. Remove/lower beholder MR

[Salk]

Beholders have always been overpowered... That is why they introduced in the game the Shield of Balduran.

 

The developers escalate the power to such absurd levels that then they need to create overpowered items in order to counter their own decisions.

[subtledoctor]

To be fair, that's how beholders are in PnP... but then in PnP you'll most likely try to find some way to bypass them other than a frontal (ha ha) attack. You certainly won't find/fight them in the manner and numbers you do in BG2. And you certainly would never fight 3 elder orbs at the same time, as a team... I'm pretty sure that violates the basic ecology of the animals.

 

So yeah Bioware brought in the iconic D&D superpowered villains... and made them completely one-dimensional punching bags, and gave you a win-button item do the can't punch you back. It's atrocious. Oh yeah, and then they did it again (vampires, amulet of power) and then they did it again (illithids, greenstone/mord's sword/skelly warrior) and then they did it again (demilich... go berserk!!)

 

I have to tell you, for the game generally regarded as the best RPG ever made, BG2 is pretty terrible...

 

(For my money BG1, IWD, and PST were all better than BG2 - not to mention Arcanum and Fallout.)

[Jarno Mikkola]

To be fair, that's how beholders are in PnP...

Sorry but my PnP note saying this about that:

 

The point being that this is not a PnP game, but a computer game with 15 time unites scheduled into one second for 6 second per turn timed game, with pause command, not a turn-based PnP game with a turn lasting anything the gamers think is appropriate, for it's turn-based and all that, just like the chess. So more like Command and Conquer than Stratego. So the rule book you read is as relevant.

 

I have to tell you, for the game generally regarded as the best RPG ever made, BG2 is pretty terrible...

If it's so terrible, can you not walk away from it ?

The reason why the item are there is that the BG1 had the same things.

Basilisks, 1400xp and 7000xp per pop, just one potion or a particular scroll or the spell in it and you could whale at them all you wanted. Man you are blind. Or just enough Armor Class and not even the ogres could touch you.

 

And you certainly would never fight 3 elder orbs at the same time, as a team... I'm pretty sure that violates the basic ecology of the animals.

I am a hack job and an altruist, and I deem to have lost the last word of that sentence for it could never be true, but what was that ? Elder Orb is a what kind of a creature

[Fiann of the Silver Hand]

Beholders ought to randomize amongst the 8 (?) stalk spells, instead of always using the deadliest ones in succession. Also, P&P beholders didn't have the rapid-fire stalk blasts like in BG2. Finally, that anti-magic ray should only be able to target those in the front 90 degree arc, meaning positioning should help provide some defense against it.

 

The lameness of beholders in BG2 is totally on Bioware. (I think I'm agreeing with both previous opinions.)

[subtledoctor]

I've looked at them and tried to limit the rays to like, one every 3 seconds... but it seems too hardcoded. Very frustrating.

[Demivrgvs]

As much as I hate the way beholders are handled I fear changing them isn't up to SR. A mod like aTweak would be better (PnP Beholder?) or SCS itself should rebalance them a bit more. I think this has come up multiple times and all I can say is that I would gladly help a coder by designing a similar mod but I don't have the time myself to code it.

 

I also share Subtle's sentiment about the lameness of 'Beholder vs Shield of Cheese' or 'Vampire vs Amulet of Power', albeit as Jarno says it's not a BG2 thing because 'Basilisk vs ProPetrification' (a spell that NEVER existed outside BG1) is even worse imo.

 

On topic, when it comes to the anti-magic ray I think the main issues are 1) its spammability and 2) its spell failure duration.

 

1) Within PnP a beholder would not be able to use its main eye and then rapidly follow up with the other rays like a vulcan mini-gun, not to mention a creature within the anti-magic be immune to magic for that round. The least one should do imo is to put a timer on it (no more than 1 per round) and a script condition which makes the beholder unable to shoot the other rays for at least a few seconds after using it (if we don't want to touch the scripts because of SCS, then we could apply a 'pause target' for 2 seconds on the spl itself).

 

2) Spell Failure is a failed attempt at simulate the persisting ray, instead it lasts 20 seconds (30 for elder orbs). I say 1 round (6 seconds) is more than enough.

 

In exchange for the above nerfs, I would give the Anti-magic ray a cone-shaped projectile (maybe limiting it to once every 3-5 rounds).

 

 

P.S The older orb's anti-magic ray also drains memorized spells...wtf!?

[kreso]

As much as I hate the way beholders are handled I fear changing them isn't up to SR. A mod like aTweak would be better (PnP Beholder?)

I think this is WIP.

 

Anyhow, on topic - Spell Shield keeps you safe from Anti Magic ray, and it will buy you enough time to kill the beholder.

Gauths are a joke anyhow - Pro Fear, Free Action, Pro Magic Energy and Pro Electricity make one immune to all they toss at you.

If Demi implements my tweak to Dispelling Screen, beholder anti-magic ray will destroy it but buffs will stay online (similar to Spell Shield, albeit unlike with Spell Shield Anti-magic ray will still dispel Spell Protections).

Anti-magic ray isn't used so often to make fighting them impossible.

Hive Mother and the like are monsters worth 50K XP. (!) One can't expect but a hard battle there. And you can pretty much avoid them anyhow.

No beholder (sans Hive Mother) sees through invisibility, so your weaklings may stay hidden.

Finally, IR potions are undispellable, and beholders can't dispel those buffs. In the same line, an evil fighter (Korgan for example) can (with IR) be outfitted to counter everything a beholder throws at him.

If all else fails, SCS has a option to prevent stealing Balduran shield, so use that and go town. Cheese with cheese, but...

 

 

2) Spell Failure is a failed attempt at simulate the persisting ray, instead it lasts 20 seconds (30 for elder orbs). I say 1 round (6 seconds) is more than enough.

 

In exchange for the above nerfs, I would give the Anti-magic ray a cone-shaped projectile (maybe limiting it to once every 3-5 rounds).

SCS works exactly like this (bar cone-shaped pro on Anti-magic ray). It also prevents quickslots. Keep in mind that a target hit by Anti-magic ray gets immunity to magic for the next round, including rays.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Somehow everyone forgets that the Shield of Cheese is not cheep. It's costly as hell. Just like the rods of cheese are. And it's no where near the Beholders... it's in a place you can't even visit from the underdark. I see no problems about it in the game.

 

... albeit as Jarno says it's not a BG2 thing because 'Basilisk vs ProPetrification' (a spell that NEVER existed outside BG1) is even worse imo.

Erhm WTF ? Sorry, but as far as I am concerned, the Protection from Petrification was a 2ed spell, a 2nd level mage spell to be particular about it. The petrification effect was supposed to be linked to the Basilisks spirit, so if it died, it was supposed to unpetrify the victim.

 

SCS works exactly like this ... It also prevents quickslots. Keep in mind that a target hit by Anti-magic ray gets immunity to magic for the next round, including rays.

So logic would tell us that the 1 round duration(aka 6 seconds) for the casting failure would fit well, instead of freaking 5. Quick slots pitsmogs, the thing with that is, the AI can still use them. So you are just interfering with the players full control, you are not actually preventing cheese. So exactly promoting cheating actually. But ahh... who the F cares.

[subtledoctor]

Rather than fashion some kind of custom crazy super ray that dispels and debuffs and imposes casting failure and maybe with different durations... I would probably simply have the anti-magic ray cast "Anti-Magic Shell" with a 1-round duration. Which already exists in IWDification and IWDEE, and so should be fairly easy to adapt...

 

But yeah this is not something for SR to be concerned with, I'm not sure why this thread was posted here...

 

No beholder (sans Hive Mother) sees through invisibility, so your weaklings may stay hidden.

My strategy for dealing with beholders is simple and sensible: sneak by them. But, I distinctly remember a recent-ish SCS playthrough in which Elder Orbs were going around casting True Sight.

[Grammarsalad]

...

 

But yeah this is not something for SR to be concerned with, I'm not sure why this thread was posted here...

 

...

Well, the ability is "spell-like"... But, yeah, this is a slippery slope

[Fiann of the Silver Hand]

At this point, I think it's all worth a few posts that we chuckle at the incompentency of those who've tackled this before us. (Ironic, of course, since we keep trying to find workarounds for something so broken.)

 

edit: Why can't we just let this be taken care of by AI scripting? Sketch out the X number of "spells" the beholder would use, then let the AI determine whether it's firing off 1 per second, or 1 per round, etc? Again, more than this would really belong in a Creature Revisions mod.

[toxin]

Spell Shield keeps you safe from Anti Magic ray, and it will buy you enough time to kill the beholder.

 

I tested this and you're right - I remember having trouble with SS in the past but it works reliably now. The problem is that by the time you finish casting it, you've already been hit by the ray. Not even Sanctuary (casting time 1) is quick enough. Perhaps the AM ray could be made longer to cast, as to allow casters do defend?

SS is also pretty short lived (5 turns) so you'll need multiple casting, and keep in mind the 5th level is extremely crowded with essential spells like Breach, Lower Resistance, Dispelling Screen (your version of course ).. one can barely afford the slot, let alone several.

I made a couple of suggestion for SS that address these points in the arcane spell thread, perhaps that could make things more balanced...

Gauths are a joke anyhow - Pro Fear, Free Action, Pro Magic Energy and Pro Electricity make one immune to all they toss at you. If Demi implements my tweak to Dispelling Screen, beholder anti-magic ray will destroy it but buffs will stay online (similar to Spell Shield, albeit unlike with Spell Shield Anti-magic ray will still dispel Spell Protections). Anti-magic ray isn't used so often to make fighting them impossible.

 

It is true that any single beholder/gauth (even hive mother) can be defeated legitimately, in some cases even easily, but the problem is that they come in packs, and you can't protect your entire party with all that stuff all the time, especially when you're not expecting them. When you have 1 Elder Orb, 2 Beholders. and 3 Gauths that means 3 AM rays that disable your casters immediately and a total of 6 lethal ray miniguns (as Demi eloquently put it) firing at your party non-stop (ok, they sometimes stop to cast PWK to finish you off). And oh, one of them is now invulnerable to you for the next good few rounds... fighting these guys feels more like fighting a cheater than a challenging monster (like, say, a dragon).

I mean, Carsomyr's Dispel on hit was considered OP so a save was added, but an AM ray that fires immediately and hits you with no attack roll and no save, and on top of dispelling everything also imposes spell failure that renders your caster useless is OK???

Hive Mother and the like are monsters worth 50K XP. (!) One can't expect but a hard battle there.

 

For hive mothers I can see your point. But the other ones are far, far more dangerous than anything I can think of in the same experience level. I mean 9000-14000, that's frost salamanders and elder elementals, basically a joke compared to beholders.

Finally, IR potions are undispellable, and beholders can't dispel those buffs. In the same line, an evil fighter (Korgan for example) can (with IR) be outfitted to counter everything a beholder throws at him.

 

I did not know IR had that feature, but it sounds great. I'm up for anything that nerfs DM/RM.

[subtledoctor]

Still not sure what this has to do with SR. Sounds like you should just uninstall the SCS "improved" beholders component. I myself don't use it.

[toxin]

You make a good point. Perhaps the most reasonable approach is to uninstall improved beholders and remove the Shield of Balduran.

 

I posted this on SR since I know SCS is not maintained, and an AM ray is sort of a spell SR has also modified creatures before (mostly for summoning but still). Finally, SR could alter spells such as Dispelling Screen and Spell Shield which are in its domain to combat the issue...