Refinements EE

[Endarire]

"in a way that nobody will ever notice"

Uh...

(But let's just assume you're right.)

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, Endarire said:

"in a way that nobody will ever notice"

Uh...

(But let's just assume you're right.)

I'll elaborate:

The current code, using the character's SPECIFIC value, is really bad for inter-mod compatibility since that value can only be used by one mod or game feature; and when it has problems, it can lead to very serious issues like mages being unable to use scrolls when they transition into SoD. (That was something that actually affected a few players, a while back.) The code currently has a workaround to avoid that sort of thing, but we're talking about using a workaround to prevent very serious sorts of problems.

But contrast, the method I'm testing now would be broadly and easily compatible with any/all other mods, and the buggy effect that players may or may not notice is... you would be able to put keys into a scroll case. Which, honestly, some players may see that as a feature, not a bug. (I often put keys into my briefcase IRL!)

Is the ability for keys to be put into a scroll case a bit weird? Yes. But will it cause any game-breaking problems? Assuredly not. I could even patch the name of the items to "Scroll and Keys Container" or something, to be absolutely crystal clear about it.

(Oh, and if you install the "Wand Case" mod, then you will be able to put apples into your wand case. Crazy!)

Edited February 1, 2023 by subtledoctor

[Connelly]

So, what you're saying here is, this bug basically makes the game more lifelike and accurate to anyone's messy organizational skills? I see nothing wrong with that. :_D

[subtledoctor]

14 minutes ago, Connelly said:

So, what you're saying here is, this bug basically makes the game more lifelike and accurate to anyone's messy organizational skills? I see nothing wrong with that. :_D

To be totally, totally fair: the mod did use this method - a much less refined version of this method - a while ago, and I did get a complaint form someone who had accidentally dropped a key or similar item into a scroll case (it might not have been keys back then, maybe a potion?) and didn't realize it, and it was an important key/potion/item that was needed for some quest, and the person didn't think to look in their scroll case, and so they had some frustration. So it's possible that this could give some players frustration.

But as I say, that version was less advanced than what I have now, and it took a lot of very unlikely circumstances happening simultaneously for it to go wrong. And it would be completely cured by just renaming the thing to "Case for Scrolls and Keys."

[subtledoctor]

Okay, I've worked out the kinks, I think, and updated Refinements to version 4.36 with the new version of Use Magical Device (now in a nice portable function that is shared among several mods, - btw anyone else is free to use that for their own kit or NPC or whatever). Keeping it as a 'pre-release' for now, like the other mods, until testing is done and the version seems really solid.

[LordofBones]

Okay, I have to ask, does Death Field actually work? I've tried casting it on multiple creatures with more than 8 HD in WK, and Death Field has killed 0.

[NdranC]

I'm having a lot of issues with this mod, specifically with thieves (I haven't tested other classes thoroughly).

This is EET+RR installing RR first as per the instructions.

1. The avoid death HLA is not setting up the proper requirement to the RR evasion. Reading the code it seems like it's adding GA_SPCL917 (Avoid Death) with requirement GA_TG#EVAS but that evasion is not there anymore since it's been replaced by GA_RR#THL03 (Evasion from RR). There are a lot of other messed up requirements like most of the assassin skills require alchemy put it's not referencing the correct RR alchemy hla.

2. There is an issue with D5_UMD, it not properly being setup with a name or description (the icon seems correct). I managed to fix it relatively easy but I also don't fully know what I'm doing. The skill seems to be working fine. I did notice that if I install spell revisions after the scrolls stop working but I haven't tried installing refinements after SRR.

3. The mod is not uninstalling cleanly. It's leaving a lot of crap in the HLA tables. This is an example from the thief one (LUTH01)

                   ABILITY    
1                  GA_SPCL910 
2                  GA_SPCL911 
3                  GA_RR#THL04
4                  GA_RR#THL02
5                  GA_RR#THL03
6                  AP_SPCL915 
7                  GA_SPCL916 
8                  GA_SPCL917 
9                  GA_RR#ALCHT
10                 GA_RR#THL01
11                 AP_MO#HLA01
12                 AP_MO#HLA02
13                 AP_MO#HLA03
14                 AP_MO#HLA04
15                 AP_MO#HLA05
16                 AP_MO#HLA06
17                 AP_MO#HLA09
18                 AP_MO#HLA10
19                 AP_MO#HLA11
20                 AP_MO#HLA12
21                 AP_MO#HLA13
22                 AP_MO#HLA14

All of the AP_MO#HLA... shouldn't be there. This is the table with only RR installed. All of those ability have the same icon and have no description or name.

[subtledoctor]

19 hours ago, NdranC said:

The mod is not uninstalling cleanly. It's leaving a lot of crap in the HLA tables. This is an example from the thief one (LUTH01)

None of those things are from this mod…  that “MO#” stuff is from some other mod, has nothing to do with Refinements. 

[NdranC]

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

None of those things are from this mod…  that “MO#” stuff is from some other mod, has nothing to do with Refinements. 

I haven't been able to replicate this issue again after the first day of having all the time. I seem to be able to uninstall refinements just fine. Unsure of what the issue was.

I have found other skill pre-requesities issues in other classes. The cleric mass ress HLA was installing with a hidden requirement that was not obtainable and therefor would make it impossible to select.

I don't have almost any mods installed, in order my weidu log is eet>leui>eeex>bg1npc>endlessbg1>ub>ascension>rr>refinements. That's it. I've been able to very slowly fix the code of the mod that handles thieves and rr but I'm finding other issues somewhere else. It almost feels like I downloaded the mod from the wrong place but I've checked and I have the master github from february 2023.

[subtledoctor]

8 hours ago, NdranC said:

It almost feels like I downloaded the mod from the wrong place but I've checked and I have the master github from february 2023

I mean, the mod was last worked on in ~2010, with a few updates for EE and RR compatibility in ~2017. Pretty much the only thing that’s been actively worked on since then is UMD. Not sure what you were expecting.   

8 hours ago, NdranC said:

I've been able to very slowly fix the code of the mod that handles thieves

I glanced and I think I see the issue/fix, but if you already have corrected code and want to save me the time, feel free to submit it. 

[NdranC]

11 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I mean, the mod was last worked on in ~2010, with a few updates for EE and RR compatibility in ~2017. Pretty much the only thing that’s been actively worked on since then is UMD. Not sure what you were expecting.   

Yeah I know that now. Sorry if I sounded insensitive about it, just trying to be useful to debug it. I've tested a lot of the HLA themselves and they seem to work just fine but obviously I haven't tested them all.

The main issues I've encountered have to do with the RR compatibility. HLAs either adding with incorrect prerequisites or now showing up at all. Also a lot of tooltip mistakes which I harp on a lot.

11 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I glanced and I think I see the issue/fix, but if you already have corrected code and want to save me the time, feel free to submit it. 

Honestly I'm very new at weidu. Reading your code and using the website to reference has helped a lot but I've also been making modifications I'm not sure would be to the benefit of the mod for the public since they are tailored to my own taste. For example I saw you have a comment saying UMD doesn't work on multiclass characters so I opted to comment out the skill in it's entirety since I personally prefer a feature or skill to work everywhere or not be used at all.

What I could do is compile a list of the issues I found with the name of the skills and what I think they "should be" based on the readme's of both mods. The fixes have been pretty simple just moving some lines around, commenting some stuff and changing the name of some other stuff.

I had a question though. I think I've seen your install order recommendations and you suggest to do rr>refinements>tomeandblod and some of your other kit mods. I tested that a little bit and I've noticed that the kits added by your mods don't get the correct HLA tables when using that order. The one I've tried was the Fey Sorcerer which was getting mage HLAs instead of sorcerer ones. Reading some of the code it seems like refinements would only account of modded kits if installed before refinements, so shouldn't the install order be rr>tomeandblood>refinements? Am I missing something?

Thanks

Edited June 8, 2023 by NdranC

[subtledoctor]

18 minutes ago, NdranC said:

What I could do is compile a list of the issues I found with the name of the skills and what I think they "should be" based on the readme's of both mods. The fixes have been pretty simple just moving some lines around, commenting some stuff and changing the name of some other stuff.

Sure. You don't have to get too involved - if you just post a list of what prerequisites need to change, it should be easy enough to fix on my end. I see Evasion and Alchemy already - do you notice any others?

24 minutes ago, NdranC said:

I think I've seen your install order recommendations and you suggest to do rr>refinements>tomeandblod and some of your other kit mods. I tested that a little bit and I've noticed that the kits added by your mods don't get the correct HLA tables when using that order. The one I've tried was the Fey Sorcerer which was getting mage HLAs instead of sorcerer ones. Reading some of the code it seems like refinements would only account of modded kits if installed before refinements, so shouldn't the install order be rr>tomeandblood>refinements?

I actually think I've come to a similar conclusion. In my current install I have RR > Tome & Blood > Refinements > Might & Guile > Faiths & Powers.

EDIT - and I actually see a problem with the way this works, a problem that needs to be fixed in Refinements. Any kits installed after Refinements that use the base class tables are not getting refinements HLAs. In my case, some of the MnG kits are not getting proper HLAs.

I think this is an easy fix - just need to copy the base-class Refinements tables back to the LUTh0/LUFi0/etc. tables. I'll look into it.

[Morgoth]

On 5/4/2021 at 4:55 PM, subtledoctor said:

Install HLAs on a class-by-class basis, and skip the thief HLAs. Install thief HLAs from Rogue Rebalancing instead. This sort of thing is very much the kind of reason I made this 4th version of the mod.

Alternatively, you could go into the mod's weidu script and excise the stuff relating to Use Any Item... but I don't recommend that unless it's something you are already familiar with.

Just use the RR thief HLAs instead of these. In fact I tend to think of it a different way - RR is my default option.  Instead of thinking "Refinements for HLAs, but use RR for thieves in order to preserve UAI," the way I consider it is: "RR for thief HLAs, and only add Refinements' thief HLAs if you want to get rid of UAI."

You could make a new spell, a permanent passive version, in Near Infinity or DLTCEP, and give it the same filename and then drop it into /override. But, again, this is not something the average person is adept at.

I personally agree, but that HLA was the creation of a different modder and I won't eliminate their work.  This mod is really beyond the point of adding new features... there are plenty of new mods being made, this sort of thing is best left for a new project.

Not in a satisfactory way - i.e. you could give bonuses against this or that creature type(s), but it would not show up on the record sheet the way the vanilla favored enemy does. The vanilla favored enemy mechanic is very hard-coded, and not very amenable to modding. Best thing to do IMHO is to rip it out completely and re-create it in a more modular fashion. (Which, incidentally, is what one of my other mods does.)

hey Subtledoctor,
I would add this post as a "FAQ" to the first post you've made, so people know how to not lose Use any Item. To be sincere, it would be cool to have an install option "Install everything but Thief Hla" embedded into the installer. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Morgoth

[subtledoctor]

Swapping out UAI for Use Scrolls is such an integral part of what Refinements does… I figured, anyone who wants to keep UAI wouldn’t be looking at Refinements in the first place. 

[Morgoth]

On 6/13/2023 at 3:23 AM, subtledoctor said:

Swapping out UAI for Use Scrolls is such an integral part of what Refinements does… I figured, anyone who wants to keep UAI wouldn’t be looking at Refinements in the first place. 

I don't know. I feel like UAI is integral to the thief identity. And if Rogue rebalancing is actually preferred when it comes to revamping thieves, the mod makers had the same idea (after all, they didn't touch UAI at all). 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Morgoth