dispel vs. break vs. restore vs. pierce etc.

[kreso]

I'm curious. What you want to make here is that, example:

Minsc is hit by Hold Person, fails the save and is held. Now he's "coloured & glowing" with certain colour, say red.

Edwin is hit by Poison, fails the save and is poisoned. Now he's "coloured & glowing" with certain colour, say green.

 

This could be easy to do with CLONE, moreover you could add the same effect for example poison from spider claws and similar. I'm not convinced about it's usefulnes however. Most of (if not all) status effects have some kind of character icon or similar. I think adding colour could do more harm than good when it comes to how player reacts to what's happening, especially in big chaotic battles.

Moreover, you can't easilly make "Break Enchantment" simply remove the marked colour for disables (it will remove the color for spells which it cancels already). It only affects those up to and including 5th level disables - Hold Person will be removed, but PW:Stun will not. Yet, Remove Paralysis gets rid of them both.

[Ardanis]

Also note that color glow, much like portrait icon, is not tied directly to the effect itself. Meaning, every single item that provides immunity to it, will need to be patched to block the color effect as well. It is possible, to degree, solve from within SR by the use of SPL immunity (i.e. batch) opcode, but then we also run the risk of inconsistency with mod-added resources.

 

So, I'm not saying the idea doesn't have merit, but implementation, like pretty much everything else with IE, will leave much to desire.

[subtledoctor]

Most of (if not all) status effects have some kind of character icon or similar.

The problem is, lots of status effects have icons to show what is affecting you, but that may or may not help the player have any idea about how to cure that status. It took me years to realize that "Cure Disease" eliminates Deafness. And I'm not a casual player, I'm someone who has NI installed and pokes around into the engine.

 

Now SR is taking a system that few players fully understand, and changing which spells address which statuses... so it's two layers of difficulty comprehending what does what. This is especially rough when decisions get made not based on what makes the most sense, but on what will preserve the effectiveness of SCS AI. (I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that - just that it invites confusion and can turn players off the mod.)

 

Now that it think about it, maybe portrait icons would make more sense than flashy colors. An icon based on the counterspell... they could be added via ALTER/CLONE_EFFECT, and those 5 or so counterspell a would just need a single extra effect to remove that one portrait icon.

 

In the EEs I think it's now easy to add custom portrait icons, and you don't need to do anything special - regular icons automatically get scaled down. So maybe this would be an EE-only thing... but assuming it's fairly simple to implement, I think it would be worth it. Especially because the noobish players who would most benefit will likely tend to play the EE games.

 

It might also save some effort in writing a readme... instead of having some complex chart, you could just say something like "negative status effects are broadly grouped into these 5 categories, represented by these 5 icons, and effects each category can be cured by a particular counterspell (in addition to other specific counterspells)."

[kreso]

Imo, it's not at all that complicated. Bar the Deafness issue, that is.

Haste counters Slow and viceversa.

Remove Paralysis counters effects that paralyze you.

Cure Disease cures disease (frankly, I have no idea why it would cure Deafness but whatever)

Cure Poison cures poisons.

Restoration(s) cure Level Drain.

Break Enchantment removes disables of 5th level and lower.

Freedom removes all disabling effects (which doesn't include poison or disease).

If something can be made to make things more clear, imo it's up to spell descriptions to be precise; tbh I never really read those much so I don't know if there are issues there.

 

I still don't understand why one would add custom portrait icons. Pretty much every status effect has one already. Even Hold & Stun, while in effect being the same, use two different icons. You're suggesting that an icon displayed on bad status effect should be that of a "counterspell"?

[Jarno Mikkola]

I still don't understand why one would add custom portrait icons. Pretty much every status effect has one already. Even Hold & Stun, while in effect being the same, use two different icons.

Well, there's at least one holding and stunning effect that is neither and doesn't have a unique symbol, that of Petrification. Cause it kicks out the party member. But then it might not, cause that destroys the in party romances, and thus have a fix that uses stun icon.. which have their own "possible fix" ... jadajadajada.

 

You're suggesting that an icon displayed on bad status effect should be that of a "counterspell"?

No. But do each of the spell shields have their very own icon? Green, blue, yellow etc ? Nope. Get on it.

And what if the player doesn't see the party portraits ? You can remove/minimize the whole interface tab on that side.

[kreso]

I so missed you Jarno . Tell you what, install SR, get someone petrified, check out how it works, then we can discuss further.

[subtledoctor]

Haste counters Slow and viceversa.

Remove Paralysis counters effects that paralyze you.

Cure Disease cures disease (frankly, I have no idea why it would cure Deafness but whatever)

Cure Poison cures poisons.

Restoration(s) cure Level Drain.

Break Enchantment removes disables of 5th level and lower.

Freedom removes all disabling effects (which doesn't include poison or disease).

Let's set aside Slow/poison/level drain, since those are obvious and narrow. But I vaguely recall (it's been a while) Demi saying that "some effects can be removed by Break Enchantment, and a separate class of effects can be removed by Dispel Magic." So, how does the player know which is which? YOU know of course, but is the average player meant to have the SR readme open while playing the game?

 

Beyond that, in reference to your post:

 

1) I don't know what "paralysis" means in this game. There are two different Hold effects, plus a Stun effect, plus a Sleep effect, plus a Web effect, etc... all of which root you in place and make you unable to take any action. Which ones are cured by Remove Paralysis? By Break Enchantment? By Dispel Magic?

 

2) Stuff cured by Cure Disease include a variant of spellcasting failure, a variant of damage over time, a variant of stat drain, and more. All of these effects can also be caused by sources that are not "disease." How does the player know which is which?

 

3) What spells are "disablers" cured by Break Enchantment and Freedom? Does Slow not count? Hold? Blindness? Deafness? Entangle? Malison? Etc.

 

4) How does Dispel Magic fit into all this? Can it dispel anything? Everything?

 

This didn't come from nowhere. I happened to see forum posts by people asking about this kind of thing, and the responses were a mix of correct answers, "I don't know," and wrong answers. And then the poster said they were playing with SR, and then the answers settled on "well then I really don't know."

 

I just feel like there is a chance to streamline and clarify this... SR should make this stuff *clearer* than the vanilla game - not less clear.

[subtledoctor]

If it was up to me, I would categorize a bit more clearly:

 

- Remove Paralysis would cancel *any* effect that hinders movement... so including e.g. Slow. Free Action would do the same, plus give immunity to such effects for X duration.

 

- Cure Disease would eliminate any kind of biological impairment or drain... so including e.g. Ray of Enfeeblement.

 

- Cure Poison cures poison, Remove Fear cures fear, Restoration cures level drain, whatever. (Honestly Restoration should probably cure diseases and stat drains as well.)

 

- Break Enchantment would eliminate any magical impairments that do not fall into the above categories.

 

- Dispel Magic could eliminate anything aside from disease/poison/level drain/imprisonment, but would only have a chance of working (affected by level).

 

- Freedom would eliminate anything aside from disease/poison/level drain, guaranteed to work, plus give immunity to such effects for X duration.

[kreso]

1) I don't know what "paralysis" means in this game. There are two different Hold effects, plus a Stun effect, plus a Sleep effect, plus a Web effect, etc... all of which root you in place and make you unable to take any action. Which ones are cured by Remove Paralysis? By Break Enchantment? By Dispel Magic?

It's not my (or Demi's) fault the game doesn't distinguish between Hold, Web, and Stun.

On your question:

Hold is removed by Remove Paralyisis. In case it's a level 5 or lower enchantment (a la Hold Person spell) Break Enchantment/Freedom can also remove it. If Hold source is higher than level 5, Freedom cures it.

 

Stun is countered same as Hold.

 

Sleep isn't an effect that causes paralyzation of any kind, so Remove Paralysis won't work. Break Enchantment will (up to level 5 source), as will Freedom.

 

Web has no counter bar a succesfull Dispel (we can change secondary type on Web so Break Enchantment would work for magic webs, while keeping "natural" webs such as spider's intact). Dispel won't destroy Web, just free the character of it's effects. However, Dispel now only affects enemies, so....Web has no counter. Besides prebuffing with Free Action/buffing saves/getting out when you roll a save etc.

 

 

2) Stuff cured by Cure Disease include a variant of spellcasting failure, a variant of damage over time, a variant of stat drain, and more. All of these effects can also be caused by sources that are not "disease." How does the player know which is which?

All diseases afaik display a portrait icon + you get combat log message "Diseased" or similar.

 

 

3) What spells are "disablers" cured by Break Enchantment and Freedom? Does Slow not count? Hold? Blindness? Deafness? Entangle? Malison? Etc.

Check Break Enchantment description. It's missing "up to 5th level" part, but you'll get the picture.

Doom, Malison, all sources of Charm/Domination, Hold Person, Confusion, Miscast Magic.

Blindness doesn't exist in SR. PW:Blind does, given it's an 8th level disable Break Enchantment does nothing but Freedom does.

Deafness has afaik two game sources - Sound Burst (2nd level) and (Un)Holy Word. Break Enchantment cures 2nd level variant, Freedom cures both.

Will it cure panic from Horror spell? Yes. Since it's a mind-affecting spell. Will it cure fear caused by Dragons? No, since it's a "natural" cause of fear.

Hope the distinction is clear...

 

Slow doesn't count as a disabling enchantment, but it's trivial to make both Break Enchantment and Freedom cure it (Demi, yes/no? I'd vote yes, even if it's kind of redundant since Slow is one of the easiest spells to counter - you still have control over your PC so Oil of Speed can dispel it)

Entangle you can view as a less gamebreaking version of Web. So counters are just like those for Web.

[Demivrgvs]

@Kreso Break Enchantment no longer has the limitation to 5th lvl spells. I think it got removed when I wanted it to also cure petrification, but also to make things easier to understand as Subtle seems to ask for as well.

 

@Subtle we tried to refine descriptions everytime we could, if something isn't clear despite our improved descriptions just point the specific case out.

 

Short Story

I think the only counter that may create some doubt on new SR players is Break Enchantment. It's hard to easily define what it cures and what not because it covers A LOT of things but I think the current description does a good job. Am I wrong? Does it need refinements?

 

Long Story

If it was up to me, I would categorize a bit more clearly:

- Remove Paralysis would cancel *any* effect that hinders movement... so including e.g. Slow. Free Action would do the same, plus give immunity to such effects for X duration.

- Cure Disease would eliminate any kind of biological impairment or drain... so including e.g. Ray of Enfeeblement.

- Cure Poison cures poison, Remove Fear cures fear, Restoration cures level drain, whatever. (Honestly Restoration should probably cure diseases and stat drains as well.)

- Break Enchantment would eliminate any magical impairments that do not fall into the above categories.

- Dispel Magic could eliminate anything aside from disease/poison/level drain/imprisonment, but would only have a chance of working (affected by level).

- Freedom would eliminate anything aside from disease/poison/level drain, guaranteed to work, plus give immunity to such effects for X duration.

Remove Paralysis cancels any effect that paralyze you (Web too, but you can get stuck again the following round). Effects that just hinder movement (e.g. Entangle reduced mov rate, Slow) iare not covered by it. Free Action is more extensive instead because it also covers effects that hinder movement rate. I could never really decide if FA should also cure all those effects or not, but I think it shouldn't within SR because that's what Break Enchantment does.

Cure Disease eliminate any kind of...disease. I have no idea why they made it cure deafness and blindness (Restoration would have made more sense imo) but for AI sake it has to stay like that imo. It also helps to give the spell a bit more appeal imo because disease effects are kinda rare.

Cure Poison cures poison. Remove Fear cures fear. Restoration cures level drain, but soon it will also cure stat drain, spells like Ray of Enfeeblement and necromancy in general (Waves of Fatigue?).

Break Enchantment cures pretty much any negative enchantment and alteration disabling effect (doom, charm, sleep, confusion, hold, stun, petrification, etc.). Dispel Magic doesn't cover everything BE does, only because of few exceptions such as curses. We were discussing about turning some enchantments into "curses" (e.g. Doom, Malison) but we never really decided.

Dispel Magic can potentially eliminate anything (with theexclusion of the above mentioned very rare exceptions), but within the current buld DM targets only enemies. DM is a purely offensive spell now, while BE has taken its old potentially defensive role. BE is single target, but a lot more reliable for that role because it doesn't have to make a % chance check based on caster lvl.

Freedom cures pretty much everything, party wide. Don't you think adding a duration would be OP? Making the entire party invulnerable to pretty much any magical impairment sounds too mucheven for a 9th lvl spell.

[Fiann of the Silver Hand]

Remove Paralysis cancels any effect that paralyze you (Web too, but you can get stuck again the following round). Effects that just hinder movement (e.g. Entangle reduced mov rate, Slow) iare not covered by it.

 

Nitpicking, but what's the difference between Web and Entangle? In both cases, the restriction of movement is caused by a magically sourced external physical impediment.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Nitpicking, but what's the difference between Web and Entangle? In both cases, the restriction of movement is caused by a magically sourced external physical impediment.

One restricts only your movements, while the other paralyzes you ...

 

I so missed you Jarno . Tell you what, install SR, get someone petrified,...

You know, tell you what: I'll show you later.... and everyone else too. (that should remove the hyper pornographic human/devil porn everyone had just come up with)

[kreso]

@Kreso Break Enchantment no longer has the limitation to 5th lvl spells. I think it got removed when I wanted it to also cure petrification, but also to make things easier to understand as Subtle seems to ask for as well.

I can't say I like this... You're making 9th level Freedom strictly an Imprisonment counter again . By the time you get Freedom you won't be failing so many saves anymore. Even in PnP this spell counters up to 5th level , and even as such it was a valid pick (even for a sorcerer).

Moreover, Cure Paralysis is redundant, since BE now removes more and shares same level. AoE on Freedom and Cure Paralyisis doesn't really cut it if BE removes *everything* sans Imprisonment.

 

 

Remove Paralysis cancels any effect that paralyze you (Web too, but you can get stuck again the following round).

I don't know if you've tweaked it anyhow, but it doesn't. Afaik, you can't cancel Web effect w/o a sectype removal, or a Dispel effect.

 

 

 

I so missed you Jarno . Tell you what, install SR, get someone petrified,...

You know, tell you what: I'll show you later.... and everyone else too. (that should remove the hyper pornographic human/devil porn everyone had just come up with)

 

Oh my....I won't let my friends be hurt...

[Shin]

The game is already somewhat heavy on distracting graphics in combat; do we really want another layer that makes characters glow in different colours depending on spell effects? In my opinion it's much preferrable to keep information like this in the combat log and as portrait icons as much as possible.

 

Admittedly, one of the problems is that BG lacks a feature nearly ubiquitous in modern games, target frames where you click on an enemy to show their portrait and buffs+debuffs (and possibly immunities). If layers of defensive magic could be displayed in such a way, it would solve a lot of problems.