Bartimaeus Posted July 20, 2020 Author Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, pochesun said: @Bartimaeus hello. I noticed that Shield of the Falling Stars +2 acting a bit weird. According to its discription it gives +2 AC to allies within 5 radius. But when another party member stands near the holder of the Shield 1 round it gets + 2 AC bonus and another round it gets +4 AC bonus, then next another round its + 2 again, then another round its +4 again and so on. The AC value changes in inventory screen and is also mentioned as "Bonus" (either 2 or 4 in turn). Can someone explain to me how a 5' radius (or...whatever 42 units is) is not large enough for characters THIS close to be affected? The dwarf in the middle has the shield equipped, and literally none of the other characters have the buff applied while standing that close. I can at least get it to work if someone is standing directly in front of him, but that's pretty much the only place. That's not really usable. Okay, now I increased it to 10' (85 units). There must be some sort of weird directional crap going on, because the character on the far left of the screen is affected, but the character up top, who is at roughly half the distance as the left character, is not. The projectile must just be being cast at like...the very, very front-most point of the character for the disparity to be that great. How annoying. Anyways, the effect: aura-like effects are pretty finicky, and coincidentally, I've been struggling to get a different sort of aura effect to work consistently. I'll circle back to this once I figure out exactly how to make it as consistent as possible. Edited July 20, 2020 by Bartimaeus Quote Link to comment
pochesun Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 @Bartimaeus sounds like a plan I guess it all could somehow be connected with the radius thing but i just dont understand why the bonus value from the Shield does not hold at +2 AC and varies from 2 to 4 all the time (as i described above). Quote Link to comment
Bartimaeus Posted July 20, 2020 Author Share Posted July 20, 2020 28 minutes ago, pochesun said: @Bartimaeus sounds like a plan I guess it all could somehow be connected with the radius thing but i just dont understand why the bonus value from the Shield does not hold at +2 AC and varies from 2 to 4 all the time (as i described above). To be honest, I might not be able to completely fix it, but just get close. Auras are basically a spell being silently cast over and over at a given frequency - for this shield, it's once per round, or every 6 seconds of game-time. You don't want the effects to stack in some cases (e.g. AC bonuses), but you also don't want the effects to disappear before the next cast (this shield applies a Shield icon to let you know that it's in effect, but imagine if every single round, it would disappear and then reappear after a half second - this happens if you try to make it so there's no overlap, because it takes time for the invisible spell and its invisible projectile to travel, too, even if it's a very small amount). Like I said, auras are finicky. An AC bonus is especially troublesome because AC bonuses stack and are also very visible to the player on the inventory and character screens, so you're likely to see the aura act a little inconsistently no matter what I do - if it were something like...immunity to level drain, I could just set the effect to last, say, 7 or 8 seconds instead of 6 seconds, and nobody would ever notice that it's actually a little longer than it should be in order to make it seem clean and consistent. Don't have that luxury with an AC bonus, so you can only do the best you can with it. Quote Link to comment
pochesun Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 24 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said: To be honest, I might not be able to completely fix it, but just get close. Auras are basically a spell being silently cast over and over at a given frequency - for this shield, it's once per round, or every 6 seconds of game-time. You don't want the effects to stack in some cases (e.g. AC bonuses), but you also don't want the effects to disappear before the next cast (this shield applies a Shield icon to let you know that it's in effect, but imagine if every single round, it would disappear and then reappear after a half second - this happens if you try to make it so there's no overlap, because it takes time for the invisible spell and its invisible projectile to travel, too, even if it's a very small amount). Like I said, auras are finicky. An AC bonus is especially troublesome because AC bonuses stack and are also very visible to the player on the inventory and character screens, so you're likely to see the aura act a little inconsistently no matter what I do - if it were something like...immunity to level drain, I could just set the effect to last, say, 7 or 8 seconds instead of 6 seconds, and nobody would ever notice that it's actually a little longer than it should be in order to make it seem clean and consistent. Don't have that luxury with an AC bonus, so you can only do the best you can with it. Yeah it seems to me that the effect from the Shield is invisibly "casted" on the party member but the time cast is desynchronized with the time it actually applies the effect or the duration of the effect of 6 seconds (1 round) is a bit longer so when the shield applies another effect for another round it adds extra +2 bonus for a small time (probably a splitsecond) but it does not elapses till the next round occurs and the effects is renewed. Quote Link to comment
Bartimaeus Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 9 minutes ago, pochesun said: Yeah it seems to me that the effect from the Shield is invisibly "casted" on the party member but the time cast is desynchronized with the time it actually applies the effect or the duration of the effect of 6 seconds (1 round) is a bit longer so when the shield applies another effect for another round it adds extra +2 bonus for a small time (probably a splitsecond) but it does not elapses till the next round occurs and the effects is renewed. So, from my testing, it seems like the problem is unfixable. For whatever reason, the "aura" effect (opcode 272 "apply effect [at frequency]") seems to have a timing inconsistency. The first instance of the aura will be applied, then the second instance is applied like 0.1 seconds after the first one has ended (so close to but not quite seamless), and then the third instance is applied about a full second after the second instance has ended (big delay, not at all seamless), and then the second and third instances will be alternating thereafter, creating an inconsistent aura. There's nothing I can think of to fix this - the very base effect, which is hardcoded, simply has timing consistency issues. What I might be able to do, though, is have the aura last a second longer (7 instead of 6 - already the current behavior, as inconsistent as it is), and then have it dispel/replace the original instance of the aura so they aren't applying at the same time. I'm not one hundred percent sure if this will create other inconsistencies, though. Quote Link to comment
pochesun Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said: What I might be able to do, though, is have the aura last a second longer (7 instead of 6 - already the current behavior, as inconsistent as it is), and then have it dispel/replace the original instance of the aura so they aren't applying at the same time. I'm not one hundred percent sure if this will create other inconsistencies, though. In @Bartimaeus we trust... Quote Link to comment
Bartimaeus Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 54 minutes ago, pochesun said: In @Bartimaeus we trust... Sadly, doesn't fully work either, though it's closer. There's just a small delay between dispelling and reapplying, so if you're looking at your AC with the game unpaused, you'll see it blip back to normal for like 0.2 seconds. Might be better, though. Quote Link to comment
Salk Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 If @kjeronis around he might come with some good suggestion about the aura glitching (he is a wizard ) but for now I guess this is the best solution. There must be many other items that use aura effects and I guess those won't work properly either. Quote Link to comment
Bartimaeus Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Salk said: If @kjeronis around he might come with some good suggestion about the aura glitching (he is a wizard ) but for now I guess this is the best solution. There must be many other items that use aura effects and I guess those won't work properly either. Most of them are covered up by the fact that they're either not stackable (extend duration by 1 and there's no longer an issue), or it's difficult to notice that it's just a little bit off for a second or less (can also extend by 1 and just have that momentary blip of a double bonus that's unlikely to change any rolls). Bonus AC doesn't have either of those factors going for it, so it's difficult to hide. Stationary spells like Ice Storm have the same exact problem, too - the timing of the "per round" effect is a little bit off, so effects have to be set to a duration of 7 instead of 6, and that creates small little windows of double-applied effects as well. Haven't seen anyone come up with any solutions for that, either, since it's simply hardcoded behavior, . Edited July 21, 2020 by Bartimaeus Quote Link to comment
Lianos Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) Hey Bartimaeus, I just looked at the Nature's Ward +2 shield with Nearfinity. It appears to me the Nature's Blessing property is actually doing nothing, or am I overseeing something? My bad, it's working as intended. And good to see you tackle the Shield of Falling Stars, this item acts so weird right now. Edited July 21, 2020 by Lianos Quote Link to comment
Bartimaeus Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 48 minutes ago, Lianos said: Hey Bartimaeus, I just looked at the Nature's Ward +2 shield with Nearfinity. It appears to me the Nature's Blessing property is actually doing nothing, or am I overseeing something? And good to see you tackle the Shield of Falling Stars, this item acts so weird right now. There are - or should be - two 219 opcode effects at the end of the item properties, one targeting undead, one targeting monsters (aka "unnatural creatures"). As far as I can see, it looks like they have correct targeting, timing, and probability, and therefore should be working. What makes you think it isn't? I've actually despised the Shield of Falling Stars since forever - but I've never really had a good way to deal with it, so I've kind of just left it alone. I've always thought 5' radii are too small and too finicky to use, and that non-stackable auras are just a bad idea - and now having actually sat down and screwed around with both, it's only reinforced those feelings even more. On the other hand, I still don't have a way to really solve either. 10' is probably too big for this effect, and I really hate tweener radius sizes...but maybe I could make an exception just this one time and use 7.5. Although...given what I've tested with 5', it also raises a question of whether a few spells in SR should really be using 5' as well... Quote Link to comment
Lianos Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 11 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said: There are - or should be - two 219 opcode effects at the end of the item properties, one targeting undead, one targeting monsters (aka "unnatural creatures"). As far as I can see, it looks like they have correct targeting, timing, and probability, and therefore should be working. What makes you think it isn't? Nevermind, it was my fault - I should read the optcode description carefully before posting... 12 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said: I've actually despised the Shield of Falling Stars since forever - but I've never really had a good way to deal with it, so I've kind of just left it alone. I've always thought 5' radii are too small and too finicky to use, and that non-stackable auras are just a bad idea - and now having actually sat down and screwed around with both, it's only reinforced those feelings even more. On the other hand, I still don't have a way to really solve either. 10' is probably too big for this effect, and I really hate tweener radius sizes...but maybe I could make an exception just this one time and use 7.5. Although...given what I've tested with 5', it also raises a question of whether a few spells in SR should really be using 5' as well... As there are no visual indicators on radii, it is pointlessly complicated for the player to have so many different sizes. When casting Defensive Harmony, I often end up guarding all but my tank... and with the short duration it is the last buff before heading into battle... Speaking of, what about giving the Shield of Falling Stars a few casts of this spell instead of an aura? I really would reduce the number of sizes. E.g. 30' and 15'. Quote Link to comment
Bartimaeus Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Lianos said: Nevermind, it was my fault - I should read the optcode description carefully before posting... As there are no visual indicators on radii, it is pointlessly complicated for the player to have so many different sizes. When casting Defensive Harmony, I often end up guarding all but my tank... and with the short duration it is the last buff before heading into battle... Speaking of, what about giving the Shield of Falling Stars a few casts of this spell instead of an aura? I really would reduce the number of sizes. E.g. 30' and 15'. I actually increased Defensive Harmony to 20' in SRR a few weeks ago, as I was annoyed with the small AoE/short duration bad combo as well. I'm pretty happy with 10', 20', and 30'...alternatively expressed as 5', 10', and 15' if you go by the EE's listings - a 30' radius in SR or SRR a la Fireball is actually listed as 15' in the EEs, which means a vanilla 15' would be a 7.5' in that notation, I guess. But I am pretty ready to throw all 5's straight into the garbage can...the biggest balance concerns if you're changing them to 10' would be Hold Person/Monster/Animal/Undead, and Flame Strike, I think. Flame Strike is probably not worth worrying about as it's not all that strong compared to arcane options at a similar level, but 10' might be a little much for the Hold spells. Quote Link to comment
DavidW Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Regarding auras: I have had fairly good success with bypassing the game's apply-at-frequency effects and just getting a spell to cast itself again, with a 1-second delay. Of course, you then need to get rid of it manually if it's a finite duration, equipped item, etc., so it's not a panacea. (IIRC it was how IWD-in-BG2 applied salamander auras, though I think IWDEE ended up doing it differently.) Quote Link to comment
Bartimaeus Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, DavidW said: Regarding auras: I have had fairly good success with bypassing the game's apply-at-frequency effects and just getting a spell to cast itself again, with a 1-second delay. Of course, you then need to get rid of it manually if it's a finite duration, equipped item, etc., so it's not a panacea. (IIRC it was how IWD-in-BG2 applied salamander auras, though I think IWDEE ended up doing it differently.) I tested it out, and it has more or less the same exact issue - a duration of 6 is too short and there are blips of it expiring (can see the AC go down if you're in an unpaused inventory and the portrait icon disappears as well), while 7 creates blips of double protection. It does seem a little more consistent than the at frequency effect at the very least, because it isn't swapping off two different cycles where it's almost immediately recast vs. almost an entire second of being off, but the fundamental issues unfortunately remain. Right now, I'm just giving its own sectype and having it constantly dispel the AC bonus (but not the portrait icon, which lasts 1 second longer) via sectype removal and then reapply it every round, which seems to be the most consistent option across all games right now. ...By the way, uh, is there any real risk of running out of sectypes in ToBEx/EE games? I've added a handful between IRR and SRR and I'm not sure if that'll ever be a problem or not - I'm not sure what the limit is. And using a sectype for just one crappy shield effect would be pretty dumb if the limit isn't very high. Edited July 21, 2020 by Bartimaeus Quote Link to comment
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