IR Revised V1.3.800 (2022 January 11th)

[DavidW]

I don't actually know what the limit is. But presumably it's at least 255, and most mods I know add at most a handful. (Especially because sectype tricks are mostly redundant in EE- it only comes up for the classic engine).

I hadn't seen blips, but maybe it's more stable on EE, which is mostly what I test on these days. Setting a duration of 7 seconds and removing the previous effect via sectype magic does sound like the right way to deal with them.

[Bartimaeus]

11 minutes ago, DavidW said:

I don't actually know what the limit is. But presumably it's at least 255, and most mods I know add at most a handful. (Especially because sectype tricks are mostly redundant in EE- it only comes up for the classic engine).

I hadn't seen blips, but maybe it's more stable on EE, which is mostly what I test on these days. Setting a duration of 7 seconds and removing the previous effect via sectype magic does sound like the right way to deal with them.

Okay, 255 is a lot. I'd be pretty surprised to see if there are enough BG mods currently in existence to use up all of that. For some reason, I thought the limit was much smaller, like maybe 30 or something. And yeah, with sectype removal, there's only a few frames where it disappears, which is extremely unlikely to affect any rolls and also very difficult to see since I make it so the portrait icon doesn't get dispelled with it.

[subtledoctor]

I missed all this about auras. I’ve done a lot with them, here are some of my current best practices:

- Rather than op272, use op177 triggering an EFF, and in the EFF use op232 with the aura subspell triggering when hit points are below 102%.

- Don’t use a projectile! Projectiles add timing issues. 

- Auras are easy in EE games because you can have the subspell cancel itself with op321. In the pre-EE engine the only way to do that is by giving the subspell a custom sectype. If you are only adding a couple sectypes for this purpose, then go ahead. (Though best practice is probably still to make the EE version use op321 instead.)

- Get creative about what your aura does. AC bonuses are boring! Some effects naturally don’t stack, and these are great for auras because you can set the subspell’s duration to 7 or 8 seconds and not worry at all about canceling it. Reflected Image and Stoneskin come immediately to mind, and the non-stacking Luck opcode. There are others too.

- I used to use spells that re-cast themselves endlessly, which can be interrupted (and thus “canceled”) with op206. But I had some weird issues crop up, like crashes and/or corrupted savegames after several dozen hours playing. I never linked it to this with complete certainty, but I just don’t trust the engine enough to handle it perfectly with repeated save/reloads and the convoluted things that can happen. Especially with items it can be complicated, since you can trigger an effect by equipping an item but not by unequipping an item (apart from removing passive effects).

- The EE engine is also better for this because of op318 and op326 which allow conditioning the aura effect on some status, e.g. a state or stat that can be set while an item is equipped. 

All in all, in pre-EE games I would limit the use if auras, to a few cases where a custom sectype can be justified or the aura effect is naturally non-stacking. In EE games, you can go hog-wild and use auras for all kinds of stuff. (My most complex application is probably allowing you to keep the spell slot bonus of the Zerth Blade for up to 60 seconds after unequipping it, allowing you to briefly use a sling or Melf’s Meteors without worrying about losing spells.)

[Luke]

17 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I'd be pretty surprised to see if there are enough BG mods currently in existence to use up all of that.

Well, in that case I guess you would use Primary Type and opcode #220 (in place of Secondary Type and opcode #221...)

12 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Rather than op272, use op177 triggering an EFF, and in the EFF use op232...

Well, it depends (the check on hit points triggers once per round).

What if I need an aura that triggers once every two rounds? Or once per three seconds? If that's the case, then you're forced to use op#272 + op#146 in the EFF to cast the aura subspell...

Edited July 22, 2020 by Luke

[subtledoctor]

15 minutes ago, Luke said:

What if I need an aura that triggers once every two rounds? Or once per three seconds?

Obviously it depends on the particular case, but in most cases I would rather adjust to a once-per-round renewal rather than risk the old op272 interference bug. 

[NdranC]

Neb's Nasty Cutter +1 seems to have a slight bug, it claims the diseased effect last for 5 rounds and it will slow the target AND deals 1 tick of poison damage at the end of every round for 5 rounds. After testing it several times, I'm noticing it only ticks for 4 rounds. It seems to be missing the first tick when the poison is applied.

EDIT: Minor question, I killed the shadow dragon but it didn't drop "Crom Faeyr Scroll". Is this something that IR or maybe SCS changes? I guess nothing I can do about it but just asking around.

Edited July 22, 2020 by NdranC

[Bartimaeus]

6 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I missed all this about auras. I’ve done a lot with them, here are some of my current best practices:

- Rather than op272, use op177 triggering an EFF, and in the EFF use op232 with the aura subspell triggering when hit points are below 102%.

- Don’t use a projectile! Projectiles add timing issues. 

- Auras are easy in EE games because you can have the subspell cancel itself with op321. In the pre-EE engine the only way to do that is by giving the subspell a custom sectype. If you are only adding a couple sectypes for this purpose, then go ahead. (Though best practice is probably still to make the EE version use op321 instead.)

- Get creative about what your aura does. AC bonuses are boring! Some effects naturally don’t stack, and these are great for auras because you can set the subspell’s duration to 7 or 8 seconds and not worry at all about canceling it. Reflected Image and Stoneskin come immediately to mind, and the non-stacking Luck opcode. There are others too.

- I used to use spells that re-cast themselves endlessly, which can be interrupted (and thus “canceled”) with op206. But I had some weird issues crop up, like crashes and/or corrupted savegames after several dozen hours playing. I never linked it to this with complete certainty, but I just don’t trust the engine enough to handle it perfectly with repeated save/reloads and the convoluted things that can happen. Especially with items it can be complicated, since you can trigger an effect by equipping an item but not by unequipping an item (apart from removing passive effects).

- The EE engine is also better for this because of op318 and op326 which allow conditioning the aura effect on some status, e.g. a state or stat that can be set while an item is equipped. 

All in all, in pre-EE games I would limit the use if auras, to a few cases where a custom sectype can be justified or the aura effect is naturally non-stacking. In EE games, you can go hog-wild and use auras for all kinds of stuff. (My most complex application is probably allowing you to keep the spell slot bonus of the Zerth Blade for up to 60 seconds after unequipping it, allowing you to briefly use a sling or Melf’s Meteors without worrying about losing spells.)

Opcode 232 instead of 272: Can't use that in non-EE games (well, I mean, you can, but you can't select the condition type you mentioned, it's EE-only).

No projectile: Don't...use a projectile? How would you select the area of effect size without a projectile entirely? Or do you mean don't use a secondary projectile?

Thanks for the information. Don't think I'll ever like auras, though, .

[Bartimaeus]

5 hours ago, NdranC said:

Neb's Nasty Cutter +1 seems to have a slight bug, it claims the diseased effect last for 5 rounds and it will slow the target AND deals 1 tick of poison damage at the end of every round for 5 rounds. After testing it several times, I'm noticing it only ticks for 4 rounds. It seems to be missing the first tick when the poison is applied.

Most likely a timing issue with the disease effect itself. It's set to do 1 damage every 6 seconds, with a duration of 30 seconds - it may be that it needs one extra second to apply the last damage tick.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Bartimaeus
timing, not typing

[subtledoctor]

52 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

you can't select the condition [hp<%] it's EE-only

Whaaaat.  Shows how long I've been without a working pre-EE install to do stuff in.  So they must use 272?  And don't they run into the bug where one or another effect fails to fire if another repeating effect is applied, like regeneration?  In this case I might actually take the time and care to set up a repeated self-casting spell, as DavidW mentioned.  (But seriously, just another reason people should be playing the EE engine.  It's not just BS UI stuff some meanginful fixes have been made as well.)

52 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

No projectile: Don't...use a projectile? How would you select the area of effect size without a projectile entirely? Or do you mean don't use a secondary projectile?

Hmm, I forget.  I don't use projectiles with my bard songs since I want it to travel instantaneously to the effect's recipient, and the song effects are pretty weak, and I just stopped caring about whether the recipients are close to the singer.  So my bard songs work across the entire map, or whatever the range of the effect is, 500 maybe.  I thought I might have a no-projectile effect in my automatic Shield Bash effect (which is limited to a 3' range), but I just checked that is using a custom projectile.

Huh.  It's been a long time since I modded this stuff, and my brain is all fuzzy.  Does the "range" field at 0x80 of a spell's ability header not work if you don't use a projectile?

Edited July 22, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Bartimaeus]

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Whaaaat.  Shows how long I've been without a working pre-EE install to do stuff in.  So they must use 272?  And don't they run into the bug where one or another effect fails to fire if another repeating effect is applied, like regeneration?  In this case I might actually take the time and care to set up a repeated self-casting spell, as DavidW mentioned.  (But seriously, just another reason people should be playing the EE engine.  It's not just BS UI stuff some meanginful fixes have been made as well.)

Hmm, I forget.  I don't use projectiles with my bard songs since I want it to travel instantaneously to the effect's recipient, and the song effects are pretty weak, and I just stopped caring about whether the recipients are close to the singer.  So my bard songs work across the entire map, or whatever the range of the effect is, 500 maybe.  I thought I might have a no-projectile effect in my automatic Shield Bash effect (which is limited to a 3' range), but I just checked that is using a custom projectile.

Huh.  It's been a long time since I modded this stuff, and my brain is all fuzzy.  Does the "range" field at 0x80 of a spell's ability header not work if you don't use a projectile?

I was under the impression that the range field was purely for character-initiated targeting purposes (i.e. having a character cast a spell). If you cast a long-ranged (30) spell that casts a subspell that has a range of 0, I'm pretty sure the subspell will still fire at them even though it would be out of range - otherwise all sorts of spells with delayed subspell casts (e.g. Vitriolic Sphere) would break if characters started going out of range. Of course, there's nothing like actually testing to make sure...and yep, I set Charm Person to recast itself with a range of 0 and casting it makes it keep casting at the original target no matter how far away I get.

Also, I'm rather confused, even ignoring the range problem, as to how you would get the aura to target everyone without a projectile. The aura casts itself when you equip it...with what targeting do you use to get it to apply to party members and summonables and such? About all I can think of is to set it to "everyone" and then control it via EA-targeted EFF opcodes, but that seems kind of miserable.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

Also, I'm rather confused, even ignoring the range problem, as to how you would get the aura to target everyone without a projectile. The aura casts itself when you equip it...with what targeting do you use to get it to apply to party members and summonables and such?

The effect target is "party," or maybe "caster group," or somesuch. 

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

I was under the impression that the range field was purely for character-initiated targeting purposes (i.e. having a character cast a spell).

Oh right, duh, the "range" value is in the ability header, i.e. it controls how the spell is cast; there is no range field for effects themselves.  That's what projectiles are for. 

Okay, so if you are doing something that needs a tight range, like the Shield of Falling Stars, you have to use a projectile.  That's going to introduce some inconsistency in the timing of the repeated effect, depending on how people are moving relative to what is generating the effect.  But with a fast-moving projectile and a short range, it might be fairly unnoticeable.

But there might be some auras where range doesn't really matter.  Does bard song really need to be range-limited?  Is it going to change the game?  Probably not.  In which case, you can forego the projectile and use broad group-based effect targeting instead.

[pochesun]

Sorry for off-topic but looks like i am responsible for a lot of posts that stir up heated debates. Just a notice 

On topic, would it be a good solution to implement the change suggested by @Lianos: give shield an ability to activate it several times per day to grant AC Bonuses to the party (for a limited number or rounds).

[Bartimaeus]

7 hours ago, pochesun said:

Sorry for off-topic but looks like i am responsible for a lot of posts that stir up heated debates. Just a notice 

On topic, would it be a good solution to implement the change suggested by @Lianos: give shield an ability to activate it several times per day to grant AC Bonuses to the party (for a limited number or rounds).

I would not favor it, personally. It's not a bad idea, per se, but my issue with it is that the original concept is actually a pretty neat idea/concept (even if it's just a simple AC bonus) and it's quite hands-off, which I like. I don't much like the idea of having yet another minor ability that you're supposed to manually apply, especially because it *is* simply an AC bonus and there's no way to conceptually tie it to proximity after it's been applied (I seriously can't see myself ever remembering to apply such a minor ability). For the time being, I've applied my fix to it and increased the range up to 7.5' - it's not ideal, but at least you should see it working without major issue when a character wielding the shield is fighting next to one or two of your other characters (...and without having to be literally as close as the game engine will allow you to be to see it applied). If I ever get rid of of 5' radii entirely (which I'm still considering - I might do that in my upcoming run after a bad sorcerer bug with SCS has been fixed to test out how it affects the Hold series of spells), I'll probably just bite the bullet and increase it up to 10' likewise...but for the time being, at least it works.

[DavidW]

On 7/22/2020 at 11:39 AM, NdranC said:

EDIT: Minor question, I killed the shadow dragon but it didn't drop "Crom Faeyr Scroll". Is this something that IR or maybe SCS changes? I guess nothing I can do about it but just asking around.

It's not SCS (well, not intentionally anyway, and I can't see a way it could happen accidentally).

[Bartimaeus]

@NdranC

I didn't even see that question, whoops. I think IR moves Crom Faeyr's scroll to...the Underdark Beholder Lair? Think the dragon gets the Girdle of Giant Strength instead or something like that.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Bartimaeus