Feature Request/Suggestion

[Endarire]

@jastey
Motivation suggestion: Imoen believes Spellhold (the structure, the island, etc.) is harmful to its inhabitants.  Revenge is one part of visiting Spellhold and hurting Johnny.  Freeing prisoners who were placed there likely due to wrongful convictions or dumped there like the Dark Souls Undead Asylum to let them rot away forever is another seemingly noble cause.

[jastey]

9 hours ago, Endarire said:

@jastey
Motivation suggestion: Imoen believes Spellhold (the structure, the island, etc.) is harmful to its inhabitants.  Revenge is one part of visiting Spellhold and hurting Johnny.  Freeing prisoners who were placed there likely due to wrongful convictions or dumped there like the Dark Souls Undead Asylum to let them rot away forever is another seemingly noble cause.

As much as I agree that this would be in character for Imoen imho, you have one error in your train of thoughts: with I4E installed, neither Imoen nor the PC know any details about Spellhold, the Asylum, and the way the people are treated there before they get there.

[Endarire]

@jastey
I misunderstood the situation, assuming that Gaelan Bayle or the Shadow Thieves leaked you some intel about the island and prison.

[jastey]

Hm, Aran mentions something. But if the group is already with Aran, they already decided to pay and go with the Shadow Thieves to Brynnlaw.

I appreciate the suggestion, but I don't think I can make it work as a main motivation to set sail.

[Endarire]

Who else in Amn would know about such things?  I suspected someone from Mae'Var's guildhall - like Edwin - would know more about Brynnlaw.

Would the Harpers know and be willing to share for the right favors?  Ribald?  Disgruntled Cowled Wizards?

[subtledoctor]

Is this stuff still under discussion?  I'll throw out a suggestion, with the caveat that I haven't played a game with this mod so maybe I'm off-base.

Let me challenge the premise:

On 9/19/2020 at 3:33 AM, jastey said:

the mod aims at taking the pressure out of chapters 2&3 - completely.

Why chapter 3?  (I'm not sure chapter 3 even look like with this mod.)  Maybe just remove the pressure from chapter 2.  Imoen stays around, you run into a bunch of people with convenient adventure hooks, you slay a bunch of monsters and NPCs and amass a fortune... then at some point, bam! Imoen gets abducted.  Teleported away by Jonny himself - we know he spent a lot of time doing gross stuff with her, more than with Charname.  He's got a bead on her soul and once he's set up in Spellhold (as shown in vanilla cut-scenes) he is able to utilize a device or technique to home in on her and swipe her right out of (in to?) thin air. 

(I'll defend the idea: lore-wise, while teleportation seems fairly easy and common for everyone except Charname & Co., offensive teleportation is actually surprisingly rare and difficult.  We have an oddball spell, Teleport Field, that shuffles people around a room; and then we have Maze and Imprisonment at very high spell levels.  Grabbing someone from their location, far from where the caster is (though presumably viewable by scrying), and bringing them unerringly to you seems like actually very high-level stuff.  Easily equivalent to Imprisonment IMHO... maybe even more advanced, because Imprisonment only works on someone right in front of you.  So I'd say this sort of abduction-by-teleportation is probably 9th- or even 10th-level magic.  That would explain why Irenicus needs the resources of a place like Spellhold, and to take some weeks getting his ducks in a row there, in order to do it.  (It also explains why he didn't utilize something like this when he originally captures Charname, and why he doesn't do something like this in chapter 2/3 of the unmodded game.))

Anyway Irenicus uses the connection he forcibly forged with Imoen to find and take her.  She can give a dramatic speech explaining what is happening - "oh gods, it's him, it's Irenicus!  I can feel it, he's pulling me away... there's some kind of connection, I can't resist it! Help me! Find me! Please-" ...and then the teleportation graphic. Irenicus cannot do that to Charname, but that's okay because by taking Imoen he has given Charname a very good reason to come to him - and even if Charname isn't the rescuing type and doesn't go to the Shadow Thieves for help, Bodhi is there to whisper sweet nothings about power and/or revenge into Charname's ear, to manipulate you into walking into Jonny's trap.

As far as gameplay, this would seem to satisfy the goal of the mod while keeping intact the major plot device used by the original game authors. 

• You escape Chateau Irenicus with Imoen
• A little boy asks you to find his mom in a cursed circus tent
• You encounter sadistic slavers running an involuntary fight club in the back of a scuzzy tavern
• A naive noble girl asks you to save her family lands
• A different little boy asks for help saving the people of Imnesvale
• yadda yadda yadda
• At some point, Imoen gets abducted*

Now we are in the same position as in the vanilla game, with the same tension... BUT we have already done a ton of adventuring.  You can take a little more time to tie up some loose ends and slay some dragons, but you won't feel bad because you won't need nearly as much time to do that as in the unmodded game.  Anyway then:

• You pay the fee (maybe immediately because you're probably sitting on 100K+ gp at this point)
• You advance to chapter 3 - which can be very short because you don't need to do any chapter 2 stuff, because you've already done it.
• You go to Brynnlaw, and you are reunited with Imoen as in the normal game, but in this case it's only been a few days, instead of several months.

* The difficult part of this idea is, how does the transition happen from happy-go-lucky adventuring with Imoen, to Imoen being abducted?  There are several possible solutions:

1. a certain number of days go by
2. a certain number of major side-quests are completed (recall the discussion about shifting the Rhynn Lanthorn MacGuffin stuff into chapter 2, in DavidW's mod thread - just advance a variable after each. quest is completed, and trigger the change with the variable reaches x)
3. Imoen reaches a certain level
4. party reputation hits a certain level

Can probably mix and match those as well - #3 and/or #4 could be primary triggers, while #1 or #2 could be a backup trigger to make sure the game moves along even if you don't ever satisfy the primary ones.  The specific values days or quests in #1/#2 could easily be user-selectable at install-time.

tl;dr: Imoen has to get abducted at some point... instead of moving it all the way. back to chapter 4, just move it back to chapter 3.  It would be simpler, and yet accomplish much the same thing.

Edited October 3, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Endarire]

@subtledoctor
Well put, doc!  Thankee!

[Lightbringer]

@subtledoctor

Very interesting ideas.  Challenging assumptions and premises is a very powerful method for solving thorny problems. I see a couple issues to solve with your suggestion.

1. Initial motivation.

What makes these games work is a background focus. While you may be free to go wherever and do whatever, there's always a background threat nudging you forward. In BG1 the Dark Figure and the assassins reminded you to eventually go to Nashkel, the Bandit Camp, the Cloakwood, and BG City. In BG2, the periodic reminders that Irenicus is a threat out there, and Imoen is captured, keeps you somewhat focused and provides a framework for your random adventuring.

I think there needs to always remain an overarching reason why we're in Athkatla going around adventuring. Without a background in-game purpose, folks tend to lose interest.

On another note, there isn't really a distinction between chapter 2 and chapter 3.  Both of them have you adventuring around Amn pre-Brynnlaw. You're either getting money for your patron, or you're doing missions for them. In my game, because I wanted Fade right away, Chapter 2 lasted for about 1 in-game hour. I consoled in the gold and went immediately into chapter 3 so I could pick up my NPC. I'll spend the entirety of my time pre-Brynnlaw in chapter 3. The distinction between 2 and 3 is arbitrary and largely unimportant, story-wise. The real split is when you leave Amn for Brynnlaw.

2. When to trigger an abduction.

If you attempt to trigger an abduction based on CHARNAME doing some adventuring first, how is that decided?  You've already touched on that. Mod setups vary widely, so relying on a certain number of large quests completed or a character level or a number of days are all very unreliable. Some folks do stronghold quests after the Underdark (which was, oddly, the original intent of the game devs). Others may enter Amn at level 12, and want to do all the things plus a ton of big mods before setting sail. How many days are needed to complete the Fighter Stronghold quests? Many dozens. The Paladin quests? Only a few.

I think triggering an abduction at any time before Brynnlaw recreates the original problem -- adventuring without Imoen and creating pressure. The goal of this mod -- I gather -- is to eliminate that pressure, not simply relocate the start of it. Any given moment chosen for an abduction while still in Amn would lead to a certain number of players being left in the lurch, and having to decide whether to continue adventuring or to go rescue her.

I really feel like the abduction occurring on arrival in Brynnlaw is a great solution to that mechanic. The player has already committed to that adventure, so no plans are interrupted. The problem remains, however, of why we want to go to Brynlaww in the first place.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2020 by Lightbringer

[subtledoctor]

14 minutes ago, Lightbringer said:

The problem remains, however, of why we want to go to Brynlaww in the first place.

Well yeah, this is the nut. Like I say I haven’t played the mod in its current form, so I don’t know how or why you transition from chapter 2 (adventuring) to chapter 3 (working with a guild to get to Brynnlaw). The disappearance of Imoen, and the re-emergence of Irenicus as a threat, solves that problem nicely. Of course there is still the question of how/when to trigger those things. It goes from being a story-design problem, to a  game-design problem. Either way there’s still a problem to be solved.

But with the game-design problem, you could make it user’s choice - literally ask at install time when the players wants to transition. After 3/4/5 stronghold quests? After 60/90/120 days? Etc. You can literally ask when the mod it installed. Whereas you can’t really ask at install time “how would you like the story to be told?

Edited October 4, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Lightbringer]

Well said, but I think choosing a point for an abduction at install time would be too much meta-gaming. I have no idea how I would choose it. Mine would be "when I'm ready." I would define that as "I've done everything I can do in Amn." I don't know a way to concretely measure that in a way that doesn't constrict freedom. What if I choose 180 days, but I only need 90? What if I choose 90 days, but it turns out I need 95? What if I complete all stronghold quests, but I still have all of TDD to run through? It sounds like we're just shifting the time pressure, not eliminating it.

The one point when any given player is guaranteed to be ready to go to Brynnlaw is ... when they decide to go to Brynnlaw. That is the only time when Imoen can be abducted that is guaranteed to not create that pressure. I don't think the abduction can occur before that and preserve the intent of this mod.

--------------

Since the problem we're tackling is a story problem, I'll approach it as such. In any story, you have to have motivation and a goal. While we as players may be happy adventuring to gain levels and treasure, CHARNAME needs a reason other than boredom. A goal is what keeps them acting instead of boozing it up in a tavern for weeks on end. Chapter 2 isn't actually about just random adventuring. It's about paying a bill -- gaining enough wealth to buy a favor to further your goal of finding Irenicus.  Chapter 3 still about buying that favor -- just this time the price isn't gold, it's deeds.

In the vanilla game, there are 2 motivations to seek Irenicus: to rescue Imoen, and to seek revenge or power.  If Imoen isn't abducted until Brynnlaw, the first motivation doesn't exist. The remaining motivation was traditionally couched in terms of a non-good CHARNAME. What several of us are looking for is a motivation to seek Irenicus that works for a heroic character.

Such a motivation can take many forms, but for a heroic character, would usually involve some form of protecting innocents or preventing harm. If Irenicus is a clear threat to something that needs protecting, that can be enough. I had suggested a targeted threat to Imoen that doesn't require abducting (it was accomplished in the Chateau) and the only solution is to find the Mage himself again.

Perhaps a solution is to look in the other direction. CHARNAME could go at any time -- and the sooner the better -- but to go while too weak would be worse than not going at all. Make it clear how much CHARNAME got their butt kicked by Irenicus in the Promenade, and that he/she needs to become more powerful before attempting to stop Irenicus's evil plots. That way, the trigger is up to the player -- when they feel they're ready -- and Irenicus's threat can be whatever it needs to be. 

Jastey indicated that my idea still puts pressure on CHARNAME to go to Brynnlaw as quick as possible, and she has a good point. Irenicus needs to be a threat to something else, and it needs to be enough that we cannot just let him rot for an arbitrary (years?) amount of time. Something looming, but not imminent. The trick is to keep the threat credible, but not so critical that you feel like a jerk for doing "just one more quest."  It's also a question of what you're risking -- Imoen, the safety of Amn, or your own soul? I think the only way to avoid pressure is for the risk to be entirely CHARNAME's.

Maybe something about CHARNAME's soul or Bhaal essence. Could be handled by a few choice dialogues or journal entries.  For the motivation to adventure to involve personal power gain, the threat from Irenicus must also be personal.  By delaying to gain power, you're not risking others, you're risking your own soul.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Lightbringer

[jastey]

Thanks for the interesting discussion!

I can only repeat myself that I don't see a problem. BGII with I4E is the same situation like BG1: you know you should go / could go to some place eventually - in BG1, it's first the FAI to meet Gorion's friends, then the Nashkel mines, etcpp but there is no real reason to, no pressure (other than NPCs complaining and the game not progressing). BGII with I4E is the exact same situation. The PC knows there is this place where they could go eventually, but there is no rush if they want to go exploring first.

As I said, I don't see a "motivation problem" with I4E installed. And:

1 minute ago, Lightbringer said:

I don't think the abduction can occur before that and preserve the intent of this mod.

This.

[Lightbringer]

Hmmm ...

I guess it is still very background in BG2, like BG1. You have a powerful enemy who is interested in you and means you harm. You are reminded of this fact via either assassins or dreams. You are given the opportunity to seek them out and challenge them and their plots. Otherwise, the game just waits for you to decide to do so.

<shrugs>
Works for me

Edited October 4, 2020 by Lightbringer

[subtledoctor]

I'll play devil's advocate if you don't mind.

I still don't see how the story moves you to chapter 3.  Here's Charname's experience:

• I escape from Irenicus.  Whew!  Glad that's over!
• Irenicus was taken into custody by the most powerful cabal of wizards in the region.  Sounds secure!
• I find a metric ton of cool adventure hooks.  Great!
• Some rogue tells me that I can have the privilege of paying him a small fortune in order to... go find Irenicus.  Uh, no thanks buddy.  Money buys magic items, and if I'm playing this game then by definition I am a magic item addict.  Irenicus is in prison and I am free, and I have no desire to change that.
• Some people drop very quick opinions that the Cowled Wizards "bit off more than they can chew." 
• You have a few scary dreams about Irenicus hurting you and Imoen, no doubt symptoms of PTSD after your recent abduction and torture.  You know what will probably help with that?  A bunch of gold and magic items.  (And maybe the Romantic Encounters mod? )
• I would probably set myself up in D'Arnise keep and become a lord.  Nalia's father specifically said this is a way a family can attain nobility.  Why would I walk away from that?

Why would I give away my hard-earned treasure to find an island where Irenicus is?  I want nothing to do with that guy.

Story-wise, something has to happen to the player, for the player to change their motivation from free adventuring to chasing down Irenicus. I mean, there is a distinct transition, right?  In vanilla, chapter 2 is about earning enough money to pay Gaelen's fee, and chapter 3 is about tying up loose ends and preparing to set sail.  With a no-pressure mod, chapter 2 is about adventuring, and chapter 3 is about tying up loose ends and preparing to set sail.

Without the pressure of the original game, how does the story induce you to make that transition?  It doesn't have to be Imoen being kidnapped.  But something ought to change, that is outside the player's control.  The player should be steered to Brynnlaw.  If the only reason to go poke that hornet's nest and risk your life and soul is "there's literally nothing left to do in the game, and I'm bored" then TBH I don't see that as an improvement over the base game, whose only sin was to apply steering pressure too early. 

Let me put it another way: the mod seems intent in removing all story pressure from bother chapter 2 and chapter 3, and I don't see why.  It's okay, and in fact better, to have some pressure in chapter 3.  Removing the pressure from chapter 2 is all we need.

Brainstorming:

-- Imoen is still going to be abducted, right?  So notwithstanding the mod title, she's not really available in your party forever.  Given that, why is chapter 4 better than chapter 3?  The difference is pretty small; and a chapter 3 abduction could help with this story problem, while a chapter 4 abduction only serves to explain one cut-scene.

-- Imoen doesn't have to be at the center of all this!  The story rationale for the chapter 2 -> chapter 3 transition could be completely unrelated to her.  Here's a bold idea ripped from the excellent "Superbrothers Sword & Sworcery EP:" make it very clear that Charname cannot have a happily ever after ending as the lord of a keep, or a grand druid, or a plane-hopping wizard.  Periodically do some kind of harm to Charname, like apply a random ability score decrease with every dream about Irenicus.  There are only a few of these dreams, but Charname doesn't know that.

In-game, you will suffer some non-trivial penalties (mah stats!) and it can be implied that this will keep happening until you find Irenicus and reverse it.  The game already has an example of a wasting curse, in the Baron Ployer plot.  It makes complete sense that Irenicus would have contingency plans that could included something like "cripple Charname if he/she is more than one mile away from me."  (See e.g. Belkar's Mark of Justice in Order of the Stick.)  The effects wouldn't be that troublesome - a few stat points aren't that big a deal, mechanically - but they are enough to motivate the player.  And bonus, when you do finally get though Spellhold, you'll get a multi-point stat boost right before entering the Underdark!  Who wouldn't appreciate that?

Heck, I really like this idea, and it would be pretty easy to implement.  Make I'll work it up as a separate mod...

Edited October 5, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Endarire]

@subtledoctor
Again, the doctor fixed the plot!  Thankee!

[jastey]

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Periodically do some kind of harm to Charname, like apply a random ability score decrease with every dream about Irenicus.  There are only a few of these dreams, but Charname doesn't know that.

In-game, you will suffer some non-trivial penalties (mah stats!) and it can be implied that this will keep happening until you find Irenicus and reverse it.  The game already has an example of a wasting curse, in the Baron Ployer plot.  It makes complete sense that Irenicus would have contingency plans that could included something like "cripple Charname if he/she is more than one mile away from me."  (See e.g. Belkar's Mark of Justice in Order of the Stick.)  The effects wouldn't be that troublesome - a few stat points aren't that big a deal, mechanically - but they are enough to motivate the player.  And bonus, when you do finally get though Spellhold, you'll get a multi-point stat boost right before entering the Underdark!  Who wouldn't appreciate that?

Heck, I really like this idea, and it would be pretty easy to implement.  Make I'll work it up as a separate mod...

@subtledoctor Feel free to make an add-on of kinds. I would also be willing to include something like this as an optional component into I4E if you'd provide it.