Feature Request/Suggestion

[Ulb]

I think it would be a great feature if the player could decide in-game whether Imoen should be (and stay) abducted the normal way or if Imoen4Ever content kicks in.

Right now you kind of have to decide between Imoen4Ever and pretty much any other BG2NPC mod for your installation since I4E is incompatible with them (for the time being). If you could decide in-game you could set up an installation with both types of mods and then decide on a per play-through basis what you want.

The best implementation would probably be via in-game dialogue. (Give Imoen a banter on the upper Chateau Irenicus level about being anxious about the confrontation with your abductor. The player then gets two reply options: "Don't worry I'm sure we'll get through this" -> I4E content // "Yeah, I've got a bad feeling about this too" -> normal abduction.

[jastey]

Interesting idea. I do see why it would be a good one, too. The only thing is that I usually do not like these kind of in-game player choices as they disturb immersion for me.

I could think about making such an in-game option an optional additional component, though. So the player can decide upon installation whether they want such an option.

[Ulb]

Well, it doesn't have to be an in-game dialogue of course, that's just the first thing that came to mind. Being able to turn I4E on/off via setting a variable would be another solution.

[argent77]

I like the idea of having a choice. However, instead of an artificial dialog option or setting a game variable, maybe the protagonist him/herself should be a deciding factor how the situation plays out. It would feel more naturally to me. I thought of something like this:

Spoiler

Imoen is taken by the Cowled just like in the unmodded game. The cutscene about the Cowled's trial is played similar like in the unmodded game, but with a slight change in wording that suggests Imoen's involvement is reviewed more thoroughly in a later trial (plus adapted journal entry).

After the party meets Gaelen they must make their way to the Government District and negotiate a deal with the Cowled representative to arrange the release of Imoen. The conditions of the deal are open for discussion, although it shouldn't involve money (at least not paying up front), since the party starts out pretty much buck-naked.

The opportunity to have Imoen released should vanish when the party decides to leave Athkatla or by taking too much time to visit the Cowleds. Maybe another short cutscene is triggered when Imoen is finally sent to Spellhold. If the player pays Gaelen or Bodhi before the time is up, both cutscenes (Imoen being sent to Spellhold and the official cutscene where Irenicus takes control of Spellhold) could be played in sequence.

I don't know how feasible it would be to implement this idea though, as it would involve quite a bit of work.

 

[jastey]

@argent77 I like the idea, although not necessarily the work implied.  

One question to argent77's idea: would this be what you @Ulb had in mind or would it still disturb the original BGII feeling?

The same idea was also raised by @Acifer    at the Kerzenburgforum where we are discussing the suggestion, too.

I am not sure whether it wouldn't disturb the feeling of pressure and helplessness Imoen's original abduction implies. Because with this, the PC is more or less responsible for her being brought to Spellhold.

Unless one plays with the idea that the PC has to rush to the CB to free her, so one could RP that without knowing that he couldn't save her but is not responsible morally (and also Imoen might not be aware there was this possibility).

Please keep in mind that this is an idea discussion and that I might just stick to the Cheat variable solution since it's the littlest work..

[Jarno Mikkola]

Why not just port the player character to spellhold and leave Imoen+party to Amn to attempt the rescue.

[jastey]

39 minutes ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Why not just port the player character to spellhold and leave Imoen+party to Amn to attempt the rescue.

Wrong thread, Jarno, the mod you are referring to is called "Imoen TAKES 4 Ever"

[Ulb]

1 hour ago, jastey said:

I am not sure whether it wouldn't disturb the feeling of pressure and helplessness Imoen's original abduction implies. Because with this, the PC is more or less responsible for herbeing brought to Spellhold.

Unless one plays with the idea that the PC has to rush to the CB to free her, so one could RP that without knowing that he couldn't save her but is not responsible morally (and also Imoen might not be aware there was this possibility).

That's what I was thinking too. With @argent77's solution you'd be responsible for her abduction. Which kind of negates the purpose of a mod that aims to relieve the moral issues of idling in chapter two while Imoen is in Spellhold...

I think with the nature and purpose of this mod in mind, the choice actually needs to be out of character to make any sense at all.

[Lauriel]

On 9/7/2019 at 2:09 AM, jastey said:

Wrong thread, Jarno, the mod you are referring to is called "Imoen TAKES 4 Ever"

LOL  OMG - that's hilarious!   Love it!

EDIT: Sorry if I'm late to the party...was going to ask for a change then figured out I didn't need it.  Nothing to see here...move along!

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Lauriel

[Lightbringer]

Idea to consider: retain an Imoen-related reason to go to Spellhold.

Some of the compatibility concerns revolve around removing the dialogue option to say you are going to spellhold to rescue a friend. I do know that many NPCs react differently to you if your are motivated by revenge against Irenicus instead of a desire to rescue. We already have Shadows over Soubar losing the whole mod and Fading Promises losing content choices. I bet there are other mods where content is substantively altered or cut off without a "compassionate" motivation for the PC.

Perhaps, instead of removing dialogue that refers to charname being motivated by a rescue, instead keep it but let it be altered just a little.

There could be a simple dialogue once Imoen is returned to you in Athkatla where she says she can feel a pull on her soul.  Perhaps during her Chateau residence, Irenicus started the essence-theft but didn't finish it.  Imoen can feel that she needs to get something back from Irenicus.

The PC is still motivated to help a friend.  The PC needs to help that friend by going to Spellhold -- where Irenicus is. At Spellhold, of course, Irenicus takes Imoen, finishes the job, steals the essence, and we're at normal vanilla content.  In a way, this actually helps improve the consistency of the entire BG2 SoA plotline -- Irenicus stealing from charname and Imoen. 

There are many ways this could be implemented.  You already have a way to identify the offending dialogue lines. You could replace the word "rescue" with the word "help"

"I'm trying to help a friend who was taken by the Cowled Wizards"

"I'm raising money to help my childhood friend Imoen, who was wrongly imprisoned by the Cowled Wizards"

She was taken and held, after all -- just for maybe a day and not for many months. This would allow the "rescue a friend" dialogues to remain almost entirely intact and maintain compatibility with charname motivation/morality checks in other mods. 

[Endarire]

Perhaps being kidnapped by Johnny Boy scarred Imoen's psyche, but she managed to hide it from most others.  Perhaps she was especially susceptible to experimentation.  Her first line in BG2 or one of her first lines tells you that she seems uncomfortable, yet the main character seems in better emotional/mental shape - not scared to sleep in this place, for instance.

[jastey]

@Lightbringer Wow, I never replied to this. @Endarire thanks for the bump.

First off: I do like this idea very much from a story telling/ingame motivation POV to pursue Irenicus. The reason I will not use it for Imoen4Ever is rather simple: the mod aims at taking the pressure out of chapters 2&3 - completely.

That's also the reason why I didn't come up yet with a good solution to the requested "make Imoen's early return optinal through an ingame choice so I4E could be installed in all installs without having to play the content" - the moment I put anything in the game that makes Imoen suffer after the escape from ID for which Ireniucs has to be pursued as fast as possible the feeling of the story is back to what I wanted to change with Imoen4Ever. If it makes sense.

[Lightbringer]

That definitely makes sense. As noted in the compatibility thread, you've got "good guy" response in mind that isn't totally revenge focused, in order to meld well with mods that require it.  I'm sure whatever you come up with will be great.  I definitely look forward to having all the (in-game) time I want to explore Amn and environs alongside my lovely childhood friend Imeon

[Angel]

On 9/19/2020 at 9:33 AM, jastey said:

First off: I do like this idea very much from a story telling/ingame motivation POV to pursue Irenicus. The reason I will not use it for Imoen4Ever is rather simple: the mod aims at taking the pressure out of chapters 2&3 - completely.

That's also the reason why I didn't come up yet with a good solution to the requested "make Imoen's early return optinal through an ingame choice so I4E could be installed in all installs without having to play the content" - the moment I put anything in the game that makes Imoen suffer after the escape from ID for which Ireniucs has to be pursued as fast as possible the feeling of the story is back to what I wanted to change with Imoen4Ever. If it makes sense.

It does make sense, and I always felt guilty for not rushing to Spellhold ASAP too.

However, story-wise there now is a problem with good characters that aren't interested in power or revenge; they have no reason to go after Irenicus at all anymore, yet the story and game will go nowhere unless you do.  I now got a guilty feeling for my paladin making shady deals with a criminal like Aran Linvail for no good reason whatsoever.  And yes, I know Alternatives can avoid the issue of having to choose between two evils, but that brings its own problems as the good path Alternatives offers is 1) incredibly boring and 2) not entirely logical.

The way I see it there is no need to put Imoen in more danger (although since when was an assassin or mercenary or two really a problem for Charname?), there just needs to be a new valid story reason for good characters to go after Irenicus.  Maybe the Cowled Wizards finally realized they bit off more than they can chew and ask Charname for help.  Or perhaps they meet some elves who can give them a suitable motivation; Siege of Dragonspear already established that not all the elves agreed with Ellisime's decision to let Joneleth live.

[Endarire]

Maybe it was because I played the BG series much as a child, but I never felt in a hurry to help Imoen.  To me, she was just a character who dualed to Mage that I never asked to dual.  She was an NPC and party member, but I had plenty more, and I could make PCs to fill her role(s).

Then again, I didn't care much about roleplaying until I started GMing in 2002ish, having been raised on Nintendo Hard games where choices were between "failing" and "winning."

Thus, Imoen can wait.  It's the same result either way.