Unearthed Arcana present Tome & Blood: more options for arcane casters

[Necromanx2]

For the Arcanist, how do the the memorization slots progress? At 4th level I have two level 1 slots (same since level 1) and one level 2 slot. Wondering what the progression for memorization slots is?

[subtledoctor]

Okay, I think I've figured some things out.

On 9/18/2020 at 7:33 AM, Guest The Wire said:

Choose-Your-Own Familiar: 0.8.54 component and am able to select my familiar.
When I talk to my familiar I get the SoD dialog instead of the familiar dialog.

This appears to be game-dependent.  The dialogue works fine in BG2EE; it is messed up in BGEE.  I don't know why this is; I'm pretty sure I just re-used existing familiar stuff - e.g. the rat takes the place of the imp, so I changed the imp to use the rabbit dialogue. Since the rabbit dialogue should exist in BGEE, that should have worked.  But maybe I copied over some resource and now it points to the wrong strings.  I'll have to go through the code and see what happened.

9 hours ago, Necromanx2 said:

For the Arcanist... at 4th level I have two level 1 slots (same since level 1) and one level 2 slot. Wondering what the progression for memorization slots is?

Short answer is, Arcanist memorization slots should match standard wizard spell slots.  I tried to reproduce this and could not, until I also installed the "Ability Score Bonus Spells" component.  Then I got your exact same number of memorization slots - when my INT was below 13.  Are your playing a dumb Arcanist?  Pump that INT score! 

However, there is a bug even when you have high INT.  In testing, I identified two separate problems:

• Without the ability score bonus spells installed, Arcanists get too many memorization slots - one more than they should.  They're supposed to get memorization slots just like a vanilla wizard, but because they are kitted, the game engine automatically treats them like a specialist.
• With the ability score bonus slots installed, Arcanists get too few memorization slots. The Ability Score Bonus component increases the standard spell table by two; I thought I needed to reduce it by two in the Arcanist component to compensate for this, but the Ability Score component already does that.  So Arcanists are getting +1 slot for being kitted, and +2 slot from the  table change, and -4 to compensate, which leaves them with a net -1 compared to what they should get.

Fixing the first one is easy enough.

Fixing the second one will also be easy, but we should pause for consideration first: how should Arcanists respond to the Ability Score Bonuses component?  Right now, apparently, they get bonus memorization slots and bonus casting slots.  Should we restrict one or the other?  I think they should probably get the bonus casting slots, since more spell slots is always fun and good.  But should they get the extra memorization slots too?  That adds more flexibility in addition to more power, and the result just compounds their advantages over regular mages.

If anyone has any thoughts, let me know.  I'll check out the familiar code in the meantime.  Then, soon, I'll make a decision and update the mod.  I can probably put up a hotfix as well, if you want to continue your current game.  (Looks like I'll mneed one for my current game...)

Final thought: remember talking about the combination of Arcanist and Mana Sorcerer?  Prepare spells like an Arcanist and cast them with a point total?  I just  happened to glance at the original 2E Arcanist class, from the "Empire of Netheril" sourcebook, and this is actually exactly how that class works!  I swear, I had no idea.  Just some kind of convergent evolution in the kit design... (Mind you, actually implementing that in BGEE will probably be too complicated for me to attempt it...)

Edited September 19, 2020 by subtledoctor

[subtledoctor]

Sorry for double post.  Stupid new forums etc.

Edited September 19, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Necromanx2]

My thought is that an Arcanist is better then a Sorcerer because of the spell switching flexibility and they can pretty much have almost all mage spells known (with a high INT). So I was thinking what they can memorize per day should be one less then a Sorcerer (Same as Sorcerer at best). No bonus memorization for high INT, just bonus casts.
Would love a hot fix so I don't need to restart my game.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Necromanx2

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, Necromanx2 said:

My thought is that an Arcanist is better then a Sorcerer because of the spell switching flexibility and they can pretty much have almost all mage spells known (with a high INT)

Well, just so we have a clear comparison. 

Arcanist vs. Sorcerer:

• Sorcerers cast one more spell/level (Arcanists have Dragon Disciple progression).
• Sorcerers know one more spell/level than the Arcanist can prepare (sorcerers get 6/level compared to mages' 5/level, and I'm just going to assume a player will modify sorcerer and mage tables equally, if they modify tables), and sorcerers can spontaneously cast all spells they know. EDIT - whoops, sorcerer known spells maxes out at 5, same as mage spells slots.

So at any particular moment, sorcerers are both more powerful and more flexible than Arcanists.  Arcanists are almost as powerful, and more flexible in the long term for being able to prepare different spells each day.  But add sorcerer spell-switching into the mix, and you have a strong argument to prefer a sorcerer.  For me, personally I prefer the  Arcanist mostly because I like finding scrolls and learning the spells from them.  (I also play with BiggTweaks "Mages Drop Spellbooks" set to 25%/25%, which makes for some exciting, if rare, spell discoveries after difficult mage battles.)

Arcanist vs. Mage (assume specialist since they are largely superior to trueclass):

• Arcanists can cast the same amount of spells per day, but can cast them spontaneously.
• Mages can prepare one more spell/day than Arcanists.  So broader flexibility in the abstract... but if you memorize two of the same spell at the same level (which is pretty common) then this advantage disappears.
• Specialists impose saving throw penalties on spell targets (which is a non-trivial advantage, especially for Enchanters and Invokers).
• With this mod, specialists can spontaneously convert memorized out-of-school spells into specialty-school spells.
• With this mod, specialists get a couple other random school-related bonuses.

I'd still rather play an Arcanist, because I am really enjoying casting spontaneously.  So for me, spontaneous casting + learning from scrolls = ideal.  But setting aside my preferences and speaking solely of in-game power... I think it's actually fairly close between the three classes.  Xykon would tell you that Sorcerer still wins.

EDIT - and yeah, bonus  slots for sorcerers only increase what you can cast, not what you can know.  So I will exempt Arcanists from ability score bonuses to preparation slots.

Edited September 19, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Necromanx2]

Thank you for the great comparisons!  Totally agree with your analysis.

[subtledoctor]

Okay @Necromanx2 I've uploaded a hotfix.  (The old standalone github project is no longer needed now that it is folded into TnB, so I'll use that space for distribution of fixes.)

After you install that, it should take effect the next time your Arcanist gets a full rest.  The two instances of compensating spell slot penalties should be dispelled, and replaced by a single instance, resulting in a net +1 spell preparation slot at each level.  Which should bring you in line with the normal wizard spell table. 

(NB, this hotfix does not change the way it interacts with ability score-based bonuses, so if you have a high-INT Arcanist you will still get extra prep slots.  That is more complicated and not amenable to a hotfix; but it will be fixed in TnB v0.9.1.)

EDIT - and my local copy of v0.9.1 is working very nicely now.  Excellent.  Thanks for bringing this to my attention.  I'll upload it once I've looked into the familiar dialogue thing.

Edited September 19, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Necromanx2]

@subtledoctor One more item I noticed in BGEE. Mod added NPCs that are Bards or Multi-class mages are not gaining bonus spell casts for high ability scores. DSotSC adds a few NPCs and I am not getting the bonuses even after resting.  I waited a bit too and no luck.

 

EDIT: As a note, the hotfix is working fine.  I find that I get allot of spell slots to memorize, but if I only select like I am a mage, then the excess slots are removed after rest and I end up memorizing the same number as mage slots.
Thanks for the quick fix!!

WeiDU.log

Edited September 19, 2020 by Necromanx2

[subtledoctor]

7 minutes ago, Necromanx2 said:

I find that I get allot of spell slots to memorize

If you mean during character generation, yeah, a consequence of the way we mess with spell tables is that it will ask you to memorize like 4 spells at 1st level... and then in-game you can only cast 1 of them.  That's just the nature of the beast - you mess with spell tables, and they in turn mess with character generation.  But it all evens out once you sit down and play the game for a few minutes - and anyway there's not really any way to fix it - so I don't worry about it.

I'll look into the NPCs thing.

[Necromanx2]

I just confirmed that Neera in BGEE is not getting the bonus spells either.

[subtledoctor]

10 minutes ago, Necromanx2 said:

I just confirmed that Neera in BGEE is not getting the bonus spells either.

Does Xzar get them? Can you post a savegame with a few NPCs  in your party who you noticed aren't getting the  bonuses? 

[Necromanx2]

@subtledoctorhere you go.
This is interesting. Dynaheir works fine, but Xzar and Neera do not. I also have a bard (Kiaria Silverstring) from DSotSC not working.

BALDUR.bmp BALDUR.gam BALDUR.SAV PORTRT0.bmp PORTRT1.bmp PORTRT2.bmp PORTRT3.bmp PORTRT4.bmp

[subtledoctor]

I just confirmed with Xzar.  Weird.  Must be the way the spell is applied in CLABMA01.2da.  I'll look into it.

I fixed the familiar dialogue locally, so that's out of the way.  Once I fix the bonus spells (and make a hotfix - again, I'll need one myself), I'll upload the new version.

[Necromanx2]

Is the Arcanist being able to select Crossbow, but not able to equip them (or the bolts) addressed?

[subtledoctor]

Okay, I did some more testing.  The problem I faced was, when Charname is a Mage with 17 INT, I start with three spell slots.  One for being 1st level, and two for having high INT.  Then I meet Xzar, who also has 17 INT.  He has two spell slots: one for being 1st level, and one for being a specialist.  Xzar is supposed to have four spell slots: his two, plus two more for high INT. 

Randomly, I decided to level Xzar up to level 2... and pow! he suddenly had five 1st-level spell slots!  That's two for being 2nd level, one for being a specialist, and two for having high INT - exactly right.

I infer from this that you just need to level NPCs up in order for their spells slots to be set correctly. I think, basically, .CRE files have their spells slots set to a certain number, and when you meet the NPC it simply represents exactly what is in the .CRE file.  Changing the spell table, as this mod does, has no effect on the .CRE files of NPCs.  Only when they level up does the game engine say "how many spell slots is this guy supposed to have?" and it updates all their spell slots for all their spell levels.

I don't know how to patch creatures' spell slots, and I don't want to mess them up, or risk messing up the spell slots of non-joinable .CRE files, etc.  So the answer is, you're just going to have to let the NPCs limp along until they level up - and then all should be well.

Meantime, I have updated the release to version 0.9.1 with:

• fixed Arcanist preparation slots
• Arcanists no longer get crossbow proficiency (unless enabled by another mod)
• Familiar dialogues work now (might still be minor oddities though - I'm not perfect at debuggin .DLG files)
• The duration of the Anticipation innate cantrip is fixed

Edited September 20, 2020 by subtledoctor