Made another biggish BG2 install

[subtledoctor]

A reload fixed it, yes. The fight was fun... but not as incredibly difficult as some have made it out to be. Granted, I am fairly high-level (Charname is a level 24 Abjurer, HD and Yeslick are ~17/17 multiclassed), but it wasn't too bad. I think one reason is that I have so many high-quality summons available to me. I start out with some long-duration summons like a skeleton warrior, invisible stalker, and the moon dog. Then when enemies appear out come a pair of greater elementals, Ras, a Mord's Sword, and a glabrezu for good measure. Both Evandra and Yeslick can create simulacrums, and I also remembered my "noble djinn," i.e. a planetar. Those absorbed the attention of the left-side enemies, while some DBFireballs and an Acid Storm softened up the cleric and archer on the right side. Mazing the marilith gave me time to focus on the hive mother, and then... I had the time and space to breathe and cast whatever spells were necessary to break down their defenses. It all went fairly by-the-book - granted, of course, that I was using all my most powerful abilities.

Incidentally, some time ago I switched the files for Dispelling Screen and Spell Shield. It was hard to evaluate the enemies' behavior at first, given that SCS scripts are fairly variable now. But in the long term I can say I've been seeing enemy mages cast Dispelling Screen a lot, and I assume those were scripted to be Spell Shields. I've barely seen any enemies cast Spell Shield at all, so I presume that the SCS scripts are not scripted to use Dispelling Screen very much. I'm not totally sure what to make of it; on the one hand, with IWDification installed, SCS is specifically not designed to use Spell Revisions spells. On the other hand, I made this install a long time ago (it's been ~6 months) and I tried to hack SCS to use IWDification scripts for clerics and SR scripts for mages. I'm not entirely sure whether my hack was successful. In any event, even if SCS only considers IWDification, Dispelling Screen is the stand-in for Spell Immunity and specifically SI:Abjuration. So it seems SCS scripts have not been very interested is using that.

The end result is still pretty good, because with the resources switched the enemies have Dispelling Screen up a lot, and that stops me from Breaching them. As I think I mentioned some pages back, this creates a bit of an incentives to attack magic enemies with magic rather than with physical attacks or brutish summons, which is satisfying - fights against enemy wizards have just a touch more "magic duel" flavor. I like it.

[Quester]

I see you included a component from the Bigg's old tweakpack:

~TB#TWEAKS/TB#TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #9150 // Mages drop spellbooks. -> 25% of mages drop spellbooks, spellbooks contain 25% of memorized spells.: TB#Tweaks, V 2.61

This wouldn't be EET compatible would it? As I like the idea of mages dropping spellbooks but I'm planning an EET run.

[subtledoctor]

5 hours ago, Quester said:

I see you included a component from the Bigg's old tweakpack:

~TB#TWEAKS/TB#TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #9150 // Mages drop spellbooks. -> 25% of mages drop spellbooks, spellbooks contain 25% of memorized spells.: TB#Tweaks, V 2.61

This wouldn't be EET compatible would it? As I like the idea of mages dropping spellbooks but I'm planning an EET run.

I'm pretty sure it is compatible. Or, there might have been an install error that required me to make a small change to the .tp2 file? Something like that. It wasn't hard to get working, and in-game, in BG2EE, it works perfectly fine. Having glanced at the code, I think it should work fine for BGEE/IWDEE/EET as well. (I'd have to look again to be sure, this was several months ago.)

It's worth a try. I also increase the cost of scrolls in my game, so the occasional dropped spellbook helps with spell distribution - means I don't have to be so parsimonious with spells and don't have to worry  as much about having casters join and leave the party. Still, I would definitely choose the option for low chance of dropping and low number of spells dropped. There are LOTS of enemy wizards in the BG2 portion of the game, and you want a dropped spellbook to retain the feeling of being a special find.

[mickabouille]

There is some code to handle (better) EE in tb-tweaks github master https://github.com/vbigiani/tb-tweaks.

Along with warnings about spell books missing checks (sorcerers, specialists, thieves UAI).

And there's not release yet (maybe precisely because of that?).

So the same problem probably apply to 2.61? Though Subtledoctor seems to remove opposition school, and I don't think UAI survives refinements (?)

That said, I don't know if the spell books part have any differences compared to 2.61, as the changes could all be for other components.

[subtledoctor]

Okay, I went to Amkethran, met some people, talked to a lich, I gather I was supposed to find a peaceful resolution here and not just immediately smash in the face of a horrendous soul-stealing undead evil power... he claims he was ripped off? At any rate even when I agreed to help him, a second later he turned red and attacked me. There was no way to complete this in a way that would save the little girl's life... an unfortunate scripting error there.

I went to Sendai's enclave, which involved a lot of fun fights. Then I went to Abazigal's enclave which contained fights that veered a bit towards "more annoying than fun." But the final fight, while it had a few bits I didn't like (the seeming ability to go invisible without using a traditional 6-second clock? and of course immunity to Timestop), it was long and well-matched and I enjoyed it.

I immediately went from the Abazigal fight to the pocket plane and faced Cyric's chosen. Then I figured I would go rest in an inn, rather than the pocket plane, because how does my own personal immortal pocket plane not have any furniture??? So weary and with most resources spent, I went to the Amkethran Inn... but on the way the entire military force in the town attacked me. I lost count of the number of enemies but it was something like 50 mercenaries and 20 monks. Good fun! I was not ready for that.

Then I rested, snuck in to see Balthazar, talked him out of a fight. Went back to the Pocket Plane and faced the Ravager. This again veers into the annoying, because 1) the guy just has a ton of resistances and it's a slog to chip away at his health - this does not involve any fun or interesting tactics. And 2) he summons half a dozen Mord's Swords to attack your flanks... and the second you eliminate one of them, a new one spawns. I get how that might have seemed clever in context, but in reality, wtf is the point of an enemy that simply respawns when defeated? That doesn't make for an interesting fight, it just becomes a flock of dumb mosquitoes harassing you that you just have to tolerate.

Eventually I slogged the Ravager down to 0 hit points... yawn... and then I was transported to the Throne of Bhaal. Here there was a long conversation, and I think the clock may be running while it happens? Because whether from that or from the slog of a fight with the Ravager, I finished the Melissan convo with few or no buffs up. Maybe this is intentional, the game wants you to start this unbuffed? Cheap move #1 if that's the case. It also prevents you from positioning characters when the fight starts... cheap move #2. Then I face Irenicus (fine), Bodhi (yawn), Imoen-slayer (mosquito), and a "fallen solar." The solar and Irenicus get insta-buffed, presumably thanks to SCS, and the hasted solar has a vorpal sword - not a vorpal bow as I was made to expect. I have no protection from vorpal swords. I have more or less no protection at all. I throw a couple of my insta-cast summons out but an item like that is basically the fastest action you can take in the game, it still isn't fast enough. Before I can do anything, the Solar has sprinted over and chunked both Evandra and Viconia, even though they were invisible at the time. Chunked, as in no resurrection possible. This happens before the first round of combat is complete - in fact before the first three seconds of combat has passed. This seems... a tad extreme. There's no gathering myself to prepare; just throw out everything I can with the shortest casting time possible. Basically nothing I do has any effect and the combat is happening very fast and I am still bound to a 6-second round. Irenicus seems to have Improved Alacrity (oh and he is wearing a duplicate of the supposedly unique Robe of Vecna) and... casts Simulacrum five times? Because suddenly I am being attacked by six Irenicuses. But it's not simulacrum, because my anti-illusion spells do nothing.

TPK in probably less than 24 seconds.

Feh. Irenicus and the Solar, at least, have resistance or straight-up immunity to all of the fun tools I have acquired as a late-game high-level mage... so, remind me what is the fun of being a late-game high-level mage? The scripts all involve ForceSpell so they can interrupt me but I cannot interrupt them. I'm sure there is some "correct" sequence of buffs that could get through this... I'm sure the encounter was coded in such a way, with certain assumptions (like, all clerics have access to all cleric spells, and you can cast Wish and Chain Contingency instantaneously mid-combat, etc.), that you can 'figure out' the correct strategy. But, I hate that shit. I don't want to find the "key" to the fight, that's some Legend of Zelda shit. It's not what this game has been about for the last 100 hours.

Honestly, I don't really have any desire to finish out this game. Now that I see them, I can see some things that might work here (well, not for poor Viconia) but... continuing forward feels like it will just be a grind. I'd rather just go back to Candlekeep and start from level 1, or play IWD. Heck, I'd rather go back to Amkethran and get ambushed by 70 enemies again. I'd rather go back to a save at the Oasis and trigger the fight there instead of talking my way through it. BG1, SoD, SoA, IWD, and HOW generally all have very fun climactic battles. But ToB... I think I'm just going to walk away. I've got better things to do with my time.

[jmerry]

Going to the Throne ... in the standard flow, you get a chance to wait and regroup after the Ravager. That just opens the opportunity to leave your pocket plane and go there, rather than sending you there immediately. Apparently, one of your mods changed this.

Vorpal weapons, in the standard game, are all coded for a chunking death (it's an explicit choice in the death effect). Planetar vorpal blades also have a dispel effect  with the same probability as the vorpal hit, which is first in the stack - so if that lands and succeeds at the level effect, even Death Ward won't protect you. Good saves will, though - the vorpal effect is a death save with a -2 modifier (25% chance).

As for attacking through invisibility, celestials can see through invisibility. And that planetar sword includes undispellable "when equipped" haste.

That Irenicus simulacrum thing is probably the "Spawn Clones" effect from the Spellhold fight. Except that your party has Spell Turning effects up, so it reflects and clones him instead. Spell Deflection effects would counter it. Also, the game really shouldn't be using that; it's designed for a fight where it's just him and whatever support he can summon against your whole party and a bunch of chumps.

[Greenhorn]

6 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I have no protection from vorpal swords.

Yeah, for these situations this is a must:

Quote

Make Death Ward protect against Vorpal Hits
This component make the Death Ward spell protect the recipient against being instantly slain by vorpal weapons.

from aTweaks ( I'm pretty sure couple of more mods do this too)  although as jmerry pointed out even this can fail spectacularly. Protection from magic weapons maybe?

But yes, when things become grindfest with no fun it is good time to walk away. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Greenhorn

[jmerry]

In the vanilla EE, Death Ward does protect against the vorpal effect - with the sole exception of weapons that have a dispel effect somewhere earlier in the stack. Which, in the standard game, is the planetar sword only.

On the "mods that protect from that" front, I have two components in my tweak mod - one that makes vorpal weapons not chunk, and another that adjusts celestial levels; in the latter, I improved the planetar sword to dispel at level 25, but moved that effect to the end of the stack so that Death Ward is guaranteed to protect against the first vorpal hit.

I did pull off a non-grindy win against the Ravager once - in my "Kill It With Fire" run, I had the two party mages create simulacra, then the mages and their simulacra all prepared MR-lowering spell triggers and 3x ADHW chain contingencies (trigger when hit). Lower its magic resistance, then use a necklace fireball to trigger the contingencies. 12x Horrid Wilting against zero magic resistance (and lowered saves, because I included at least one Greater Malison in there). That monster went from full health to dead in under a round.

[Greenhorn]

30 minutes ago, jmerry said:

I did pull off a non-grindy win against the Ravager once - in my "Kill It With Fire" run, I had the two party mages create simulacra, then the mages and their simulacra all prepared MR-lowering spell triggers and 3x ADHW chain contingencies (trigger when hit). Lower its magic resistance, then use a necklace fireball to trigger the contingencies. 12x Horrid Wilting against zero magic resistance (and lowered saves, because I included at least one Greater Malison in there). That monster went from full health to dead in under a round.

Ingenious! Although to be honest TOB was little over the top  for me ( never even finished it ). Don't know is it just me but I find it so much more fun hacking and slashing my way through Sword Coast and Amn at low to mid power level. 

[subtledoctor]

4 hours ago, Greenhorn said:

Don't know is it just me but I find it so much more fun hacking and slashing my way through Sword Coast and Amn at low to mid power level. 

100%

Looking in NI, I think the fallen solar is not immune to stun? Maybe you could PW:Stun the jerk. Maybe PW:Blind? 

Looking at that ridiculous vorpal sword, it occurs to me that, since my mod changes Remove Magic to use the Breach opcode instead of Dispel, it wouldn’t be outrageous to give SR’s Dispelling Screen spell straight-up 101 immunity to the dispel opcode. Though, it would protect enemies with Dispelling Screen from being dispelled by Carsomyr or the SotM... still, it might be a good change. Combine it with Death Ward protecting against vorpal hits and you would have some protection against this bugger. (Though Irenicus could strip your Dispelling Screen by hitting you with Breach or Remove Magic, so the protection wouldn’t be certain.)

On 3/18/2022 at 3:33 PM, jmerry said:

in the standard flow, you get a chance to wait and regroup after the Ravager. That just opens the opportunity to leave your pocket plane and go there, rather than sending you there immediately. Apparently, one of your mods changed this.

Yeah that would make a huge difference, and is what I expected. I was quite unprepared for the sudden teleport. 

[Awachi]

Does "vorpal" still indicate beheading, or is has it just devolved to another form of insta-kill?

[subtledoctor]

In this context it means insta-kill (insta-chunk)

[Awachi]

Snicker-snack.

[subtledoctor]

There’s a small part of me that wants to run through this again, now that I have a sense of what is coming. But, OTOH, screw it. I think I’m going to trash the install so I can experiment with setting up EET on iOS. 

[Quester]

On 3/17/2022 at 4:22 AM, subtledoctor said:

I'm pretty sure it is compatible. Or, there might have been an install error that required me to make a small change to the .tp2 file? Something like that. It wasn't hard to get working, and in-game, in BG2EE, it works perfectly fine. Having glanced at the code, I think it should work fine for BGEE/IWDEE/EET as well. (I'd have to look again to be sure, this was several months ago.)

It's worth a try. I also increase the cost of scrolls in my game, so the occasional dropped spellbook helps with spell distribution - means I don't have to be so parsimonious with spells and don't have to worry  as much about having casters join and leave the party. Still, I would definitely choose the option for low chance of dropping and low number of spells dropped. There are LOTS of enemy wizards in the BG2 portion of the game, and you want a dropped spellbook to retain the feeling of being a special find.

Hey doc, I just found this thread by the bigg: http://www.shsforums.net/topic/60991-ee-compatible-beta-release/

According to him this mentioned component is not EE compatible, even in his EE updated version. So, if you got it working, maybe make a post there to note what you did for it to function as intended?